GDI Engine Soot In Oil - Best Filter ?

[pitzel]

Originally Posted by wemay
IMO, the number one action one can take to combat these GDI owner concerns (a.soot, b.dilution, c.deposits) is shorten intervals. used oil analysis will help determine that, or stick to a max of 5K miles.


And then you end up with the a clogged intake because of an overly frequent OCI. After all, it is well known that oil is at its greatest volatility, and hence, deposit-formation ability in the first thousand or two miles.

Diesels successfully run the extended drains and have been doing so for decades. Bottom or even top-end wear is not a meaningful issue even with the substantially greater soot loading that is inherent to diesels. However, the problem of intake occlusion is very serious and overly frequent OCI's with poorer quality oil is significantly believed to be the cause of such. Ironically hitting car "enthusiasts" even more significantly because they change their oil more often than those who run recommended or even significantly exceed recommended intervals. In places where oil is very expensive or there isn't a culture of over-maintenance, the intake occlusion problems with direct injection is almost unheard of.

 

[pitzel]

Originally Posted by UG_Passat

Where in the Dexos 1 Gen 2 does it address GDI soot, as part of its certification?


GDI soot is not an issue. Diesels run at dramatically higher soot loadings than you'd ever see in a GDI application without acceleration of wear. The issues that have been addressed in the latest specs heavily pertain to intake occlusion. Through requiring increased quality basestocks with lower volatility, and by requiring greater oxidative stability so that longer drains are enabled. Of course customers should be following the manufacturer's recommendations and should *not* exceed them insofar as the oil change interval is concerned -- overly frequent oil changes on a GDI engine can be significantly harmful over the long term.

 

[webfors]

Originally Posted by pitzel
Originally Posted by UG_Passat

Where in the Dexos 1 Gen 2 does it address GDI soot, as part of its certification?


GDI soot is not an issue. Diesels run at dramatically higher soot loadings than you'd ever see in a GDI application without acceleration of wear. The issues that have been addressed in the latest specs heavily pertain to intake occlusion. Through requiring increased quality basestocks with lower volatility, and by requiring greater oxidative stability so that longer drains are enabled. Of course customers should be following the manufacturer's recommendations and should *not* exceed them insofar as the oil change interval is concerned -- overly frequent oil changes on a GDI engine can be significantly harmful over the long term.


I think we need to expand on this discussion point. Links please. I'm sure this has been discussed in other sections of BITOG. Please link so I can get up to speed.

 

[Kjmack]

Originally Posted by pitzel
Originally Posted by UG_Passat

Where in the Dexos 1 Gen 2 does it address GDI soot, as part of its certification?


GDI soot is not an issue. Diesels run at dramatically higher soot loadings than you'd ever see in a GDI application without acceleration of wear. The issues that have been addressed in the latest specs heavily pertain to intake occlusion. Through requiring increased quality basestocks with lower volatility, and by requiring greater oxidative stability so that longer drains are enabled. Of course customers should be following the manufacturer's recommendations and should *not* exceed them insofar as the oil change interval is concerned -- overly frequent oil changes on a GDI engine can be significantly harmful over the long term.




I just can't disagree more with everything you have said . Every VW tech i have talked to says they can instantly tell when they are working on a 10k OCI vs 5k OCI

 

[dnewton3]

Originally Posted by Danno
... This article talks about GDI soot particles being 5nm, that is the equivalent of 0.005 microns.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0301679X15000432
...
If my math is correct, the soot particles are about 2000x smaller than can be filtered by the best Ultra spec at 10 Microns.



If any of you have read my posts over the years, this is exactly why I say that generally, the brand/type of filter used for FF simply does not matter; gas or diesel. Soot particles are so freakishly small when they start out that no FF will ever catch them. The oil additive package helps keep them small; the anti-agglomerates and dispersing agents do their job. As long as you don't use a lube too long, the soot will stay below 2-3um in size; small enough not to cause harm.

Never confuse the size of soot with the quantity of soot present as a % of the sump; two different topics. But generally there's not enough size or quantity to matter in a "normal" OCI. Even out to 15k miles, we see tons of data that exhibits wear rates DROPPING; gas and diesel engine both exhibit this phenomenon. If soot were an issue at 15k miles or less, we should see an escalation of wear, but that's not the case. There can be no causation without correlation. It is a fool that claims soot is a problem in an OCI, when the wear data tells us things are IMPROVING as the OCI matures!

This is why I say it's really a moot topic to worry about if you use a Fram Ultra at 99% at 20um, or Wix at 95%, or whatever ... Those particle sizes are rare in the fluid stream anyway. The really small stuff (below 3um) will run right through your filter even it's some expensive glass-media super-duper item like a M1, Ultra, etc.

FF filters really do little to control wear in a typical OCI. They are there as chunk catchers; they take out the infrequent big stuff easily the first time. The small stuff is so small it's moot.

Even BP filters have little effect on soot early on in OCIs, because again, it's too small even for a BP to catch. Where BP filters shine is greatly extended OCIs, because they will hold soot at the 3um level for a long time, allowing the continued use of the lube. BP filters are tools to make a fiscal enhancement of the duration of the OCI.


Examine the PDF graph I created. I cannot assure you that the specific rate or size is correct, but it is the concept to glean that is most important.
The size of soot is too small to affect wear in the OCI, until it overcomes and overwhelms the additive package, and then begins to agglomerate. This happens further out down the OCI. A BP filter element will begin to catch the stuff and keep the fluid stream clean enough AFTER the oil has been compromised. But until that soot size and loading usurps the oil add-pack, filtration is essentially moot in regard to soot. At some point, there will be a divergence of the soot loading, contrasting a FF filter's performance to that of a system with BP installed. But prior to that divergence, it is not the filters controlling soot, but the additive package! A filter cannot have effect when stuff it too small to catch! Wear rate data clearly shows us that soot and other insolubles are not an issue up to 15k miles. You cannot have wear rates going down and yet claim that particulate loading is a problem; that's counter intuitive and not supported by any study data. Again - there can be no causation without correlation. So we cannot claim that filters matter in controlling small particulate in "normal" OCIs, if we cannot show any correlation between filter efficiency and wear rates.

 

[David1]

Originally Posted by Danno
Just did some searching on particle sizes.
This article talks about GDI soot particles being 5nm, that is the equivalent of 0.005 microns.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0301679X15000432

This BITOG post talks about Ultra filtering 10 - 20 Microns - as per FRAM technical training manager.
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2653866

If my math is correct, the soot particles are about 2000x smaller than can be filtered by the best Ultra spec at 10 Microns.

Change your oil more often, and use the blue can from Hyundai is my recommendation. Great construction and proper bypass rating.



Also the Hyunda blue filters are made by MANN HUMMEL.. I use them for my mothers Hyunda Sonata... I change her oil each 5000 miles with Pennzoil Pure Plus.
Also I hear the intake with GDI is so dirty that they have to use some walnut solution to clean them.. So using seafoam Air Induction wont clean it however doing your oil change more often should help