gasoline/nat. gas engines in Europe

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bob_ninja

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My wife was talking to her friend in eastern europe. They have a low standard of living so they are always chasing crazy schemes to save on fuel.

Acording to the friend, while some companies sell cars that can run both on gasoline and nat. gas (like an option you can ask for so it is done at the factory) also she claims many go to mechanics who make modifications on any engine!?!?! The friend is about to do the mod on their car which has a small 1.3L engine!?!?!

Seems they simply add a 2nd tank for nat. gas. Not sure about engine mods. No details.

So my questions:

Does anyone make an engine that can run *BOTH* on gasoline and nat. gas? I know gasoline/ethanol engines in Brazil. However we are talking about nat. gas here?????

If one tried to run a conventional gasoline engine on nat. gas (besides whether that is good or bad) what would be the consequences? Engine longevity? etc.

Is this a bigger trend in Europe or just a dumb trick to save money while killing an engine too soon? Anyone from Europe, what is going on there?

thanks
 
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Natural gas burns cleaner but makes less power and you need to retard the timing a fair bit as it burns slower. It's harder on exhaust valves and such as it burns hot on the way out of the head, but at the same time you can use a simple carburettor system and get good fuel mixture, compression ratio stays the same, and I would imagine putting a carb and some kind of rigging between the throttle body and a toggle between the natural gas regulator and gasoline fuel pump and injectors would make it work.

I can see it being done.
 
MGregoir, regarding flame speed, most hydrocarbons have similar flame speeds.

Methane burns faster than petrol, up until a fuel air equivalence of around 1.2. It's the faster burn that reduces the timing requirements.

Propane and NG have always been hard on exhaust valves, as there's no lubrication...shouldn't be a problem on cars built for unleaded.
 
Ethanol can be burned in a diesel engine, just like natural gas, if you build a vaporizer, and it gets burned at the typical 40% efficiency of a diesel, too, rather than the pathetic 25% of a gasoline motor.

Since ethanol has been distilled, it leaves behind no residue to mess up the vaporizer, so maintenance is less. Ethanol boils at 78C, so it doesn't take exotic materials to turn it into gas. You just have to ensure the intake tract stays warm enough so it doesn't condense out, and enter the engine as unpredictable slugs of liquid.
 
Originally Posted By: bob_ninja
Does anyone make an engine that can run *BOTH* on gasoline and nat. gas? I know gasoline/ethanol engines in Brazil. However we are talking about nat. gas here?????


The Ford Contour was available in a version that ran on both gasoline and natural gas. It had a 2.0L Zetec engine.

Neither the engine nor the car are in production anymore. Apparently, nobody gave a [censored] about running cars off natural gas 13 years ago.
 
For natural gas its a lot more to it than "just adding a tank". If it pressurized you'll need tubes (6) capable of holding 2700 psi and these will need to be retested every 5 years. These tubes also take up space and add considerable weight. Filling stations for CNG are few and far between. For LNG its a whole lot more complicated.
 
Originally Posted By: bob_ninja
But if you took *ANY* stock gasoline engine will it cause some damage?
Assuming no acutal engine adjustments of any sort.


Dual fuel propane and petrol is quite common down here, even being offered by GMH and Ford as optional extras...I owned a ute with a dual fuel V-8...wore out the valve seats, because it was a leaded engine, and the gas has no lubricating qualities. But it was a good reliable system.

Diesel/Gas is becoming common too.
 
CNG and LPG dual fuel conversions were big in New Zealand in the '80's, - I have a qualification in gas conversions,and we used to do heaps.It was a Government sponsored scheme,and nearly everything was converted,I've even seen Mini's with a CNG tank in the boot.I had my HG Holden on CNG,and also a Mazda B1600.

There weren't too many problems - turning onto petrol when you ran out of gas would keep enough lead on the valve seats.Anyway,I have seen more valve seat recession on Holden's running leaded petrol than on gas.

Now we sell our natural gas to the Japanese - the Government takes the quick buck to balance the books rather than actualy use our own resources for our own benefit.
 
Silk, guide to bore concentricity issue on the valves ?

As to NG, when the Govt gave Woodside the leases here (selling gas at equivalent of something like 10c/litre), Woodside suggested that it would be worthy to quarantine 20% of the reserves for the people of Oz...nope, govt sold the lot.
 
It was mainly the Aussie cars we saw the valve recession on - they had narrow seats and the valve just hammered into the seat.British cars had wider seats and didn't hammer in,but were much more prone to burning.We would reface valve and seat on a head job,they would be much wider and less prone to recession.

A huge plant was built in Taranaki to convert natural gas to petrol,the Motunui plant.It was outdated before it was working.

http://www.teara.govt.nz/EarthSeaAndSky/MineralResources/OilAndGas/5/ENZ-Resources/Standard/4/en

There is still a pipeline running the length of the North Island,supplying industry,the iron sand steel mill and the power stations like the one 1/2 km up the road.

There are still a lot of vehicles running on LPG,but CNG is practically dead.A couple of months ago I sold one of my last Dual Curve ignition units to a guy who had a Sigma still on CNG - rear seat out and the rear end full of tanks.A bus company still has it's CNG system,but has no buses using it - it's a nudge nudge,wink wink story....$5 a fill,no matter how much gas you take.

I still have a brand new Bedini CNG kit somewhere - I should put it on the unused Diamante and get CNG for $5 a fill.
 
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Silk,

the couple (and I mean a couple only) of Holden V-8s that I pulled apart post unleaded all had "oblong" seats, with the major axis across the head, like they'd tried to seat, then sort of wiped across the axis of the engine to a full seat...nasty.

CNG never took off here. Govt wanted to charge the full household gas consumption at the transport tariff...still reasonably big on buses.

Does the kit fit a Delica...you could start your own bus company.
 
I wouldnt mind building a 14:1 compression dual fuel E85-100 / NaturalGas 1.8L engine... as a matter of fact I think I will , just need to figure out a vehicle to put it in. All I need now is my gas licensing and a couple thousand bucks for the house-side pump
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Max, if you head down that path, please let us know how you go.


*sigh* The ideas come easy, the money on the other hand...
frown.gif
 
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