Gas or Diesel

Messages
540
Location
Fla
Years ago the diesel used to be cheap thus they started putting the engines in cars and the price seemed to skyrocket. I think(don't know) the only reason diesel is so high is trucks for companys and trains etc. get a break on the price a big one at that. That is not what this is about however it is with the average (rich) consumer doesn't care about the price of gas or oil cause of the loopholes.Thus the big SUV Hummer etc. evolved. But most average working man should look at the potential of diesel as transportation.Without giving a plug to anyone just as info here is one product of interest. Biodiesel costs about 70 cents per gallons to make, provides superior fuel lubricity, can be used alone or mixed with fossil diesel, and runs in ANY diesel engine and fuel oil furnace with zero modifications. We offer a safe, complete, fully assembled and tested machine that fits in the corner of your garage. I don't know the expences here but I may be thinking diesel in the near future. Everyday I hear of way to fight inflation instead of crying about it find out why they can afford to drive their SUV. For me I just want to be able to drive at all. Its funny that a plane flight to Chicago is only $110 round trip and today I can't drive there and back for that hardly. [I dont know]
 

LubeOiler

Thread starter
Messages
540
Location
Fla
I try and not make it Political or show blame. I would rather hear if the use of diesel is going to provide a better (less expensive way of travel)as opposed to buying gas at $3.00 a gallon. [Smile]
 

JHZR2

Staff member
Messages
46,137
Location
New Jersey
Diesel (a) has a slightly higher energy content and (b) has a slightly higher efficiency due to the high compression and slightly lower thermal losses due to the design of diesel engines. For you and I, average interested consumers, the major determinant is this: $/gal fuel / MPG = $/mile. Sure, this doesnt factor in costs for entry and maintenance, but I dont know what kind of a vehicle that would be purchased. The price difference between a jetta diesel and gasser is small, compared to the price difference in say, a full size pickup. My father has a 96 MB E300D. It gets him up to 36 MPG. Until recently, he wasnt driving it because diesel had too high of a premium - so it was cheaper for him to drive my mother's 97 plymouth breeze, which gets 30-31 MPG, but took relatively cheaper regular gasoline. Lately, diesel has been cheaper than gasoline when Ive looked at it. The problem is that for most people, they dont wan to run a refinery in their basement (disclosure: I do, and have run my 83 MB 300D on vegoil and biodiesel, and have quite a bit of experience with it). And I dont blame them... Despite all the hype, there are some inherent issues with both biofuels, things like rubber degradation in high bd content fuels, coking from use of vegoil, viscosity and pumping with vegoil, etc. So, for those who arent inclined to make it themselves, its a cycling issue - sometimes its cheaper to drive a diesel, sometimes its cheaper to drive a gasser. This is of course very generic, and doesnt consider vehicular needs, size, space, etc., which may be a big determinant - for example, for a large car, nobody can give the consistant 28-30 MPG that I got in my 83 MB 300D, or the 33-36 MPG that my father gets in his 96 E300D... Im sure large trucks are the same. Biodiesel (blends) are surely an attractive option at diesel prices over $2/gal. Then again, despite all the argument about ethanol, it probably is attractive at prices over $2.50 or so as well. If you can make your fuel yourself, and take on the additional maintenance required, then vegoil/biodiesel is attractive. If youre willing to cross vehicle type/size boundaries (like in the example of my father), the cost per mile may change depending on vehicles that you have available. If youre tied to one vehicle and the pump, it varies, and is more of a complex question, which the answer constantly changes. IMO, the only real solution is to have two high efficiency vehicles, a diesel and a gasser, and constantly figure out which is cheaper to drive. So long as insurance isnt a big cost, youre effectively halving your wear and tear, and you can always drive the lower cost vehicle... Ive done this for many years (until my MB got smashed). But to me, having a coupel cars was a joy that had more value than money savings, etc. It wasnt necessarily the best thing from a pure economic standpoint, but then again, I did harness a lot of fuel savings by optimizing my usage patterns. Anyway, enough babbling. JMH
 
Messages
1,979
Location
Houston
you could take the train. You'll need a few weeks to do it tho... [Wink] Diesel is more primarily because a larger proportion of a barrel of crude is being shifted to favor gasoline which is (and always has been) in higher demand. There is also an increased demand for the resulting lower availability diesel. When there is extra refinery capacity, you can make more of one without impacting supplies of the other easily. When you are running at 100%, any increase in one will mean less of the other. Less supply + higher demand = more $$ Most of the airlines locked in fuel prices a long time ago. They aren't paying anywhere near market price for fuel. However, most of those longterm contracts will expire soon and the new contract prices will force major jumps in fares. I have no sympathy for those who feel they must drive a 10pmg v8 to the grocery store and then can't afford the food once they get there. the solution on a personal basis is to drive less. Period. Any new refineries built will be built based on $3/g gasoline and won't necessarily make the price go down. They may keep it from going much higher, but if the price justification to build it is at $3, this is the floor. If it does drop, the refinery will likely be shut-in as it would be operating at a loss. and doubling the refinery capacity won't make the price of crude drop much either.
 

JHZR2

Staff member
Messages
46,137
Location
New Jersey
quote:
Originally posted by kenw: I have no sympathy for those who feel they must drive a 10pmg v8 to the grocery store and then can't afford the food once they get there.
Agreed. And to take it one step further, yes it is a free country, and you can drive what you like... but I blame these drivers for a majority of the US-spike in demand (yes China and India are factors, but we cant blame only them) and settng new support prices (price floor as you mentioned) which will not go down much regardless of crude prices, due to the oil companies having a good grasp on these high-demand drivers. Its cheaper to keep fueling your guzzler than it is to "downgrade" and sell it at a loss. Unfortunately, those getting 50 mpg get screwed just as much as those getting 10 mpg - maybe more because they didnt contribute to it anywhere near as much. Yes, you can blame the migration to suburbia and beyond, the real estate bubble, etc., etc for some of the problem - unfortunately many of the folks that migrate outwards and away from high housing prices and cities are the ones who chose to show off and buy the guzzlers... more miles + less mpg + higher fuel price = a LOT more $$$ I feel sorry if you actually need a large vehicle to get stuff done... I can only imagine how expensive it must be to get your daily tasks completed these days. JMH
 
Messages
4,478
Location
Southern California
quote:
Originally posted by KW: Short answer is the Clinton BTU tax made diesel and propane expensive
Short answers are too often over-simplifications. In this case, though, you're right on, KW!
 
Messages
2,698
Location
Silicon Valley
If I wanted a new diesel in America, I would have to buy a Jeep Liberty, a Mercedes, or a VW (or a full-size pickup). Even if I were satisfied with those choices, it would take many, many years (over five, depending on the miles driven) of ownership to even break even on the higher purchase cost compared to the equivalent gasser. It's just a no-brainer to buy your favorite brand of gasoline-powered car. The supply-demand balance works with auto-makers as well. I love the idea of diesel, and biodiesel especially, but one would need to be a 'fanatic' (I mean that in the best way possible) to keep an old Mercedes, VW-Audi, or Volvo diesel going. (I used to have a 1980 Audi 5000 diesel, and it kind of became a life-style and certainly a mind-set.)
 
Messages
4,378
Location
Camas, WA
"If I wanted a new diesel in America, I would have to buy a Jeep Liberty, a Mercedes, or a VW (or a full-size pickup). Even if I were satisfied with those choices, it would take many, many years (over five, depending on the miles driven) of ownership to even break even on the higher purchase cost compared to the equivalent gasser. It's just a no-brainer to buy your favorite brand of gasoline-powered car." My 3/4 ton 4x4 quad cab diesel pickup cost less than a lot of 1/2 ton gassers that were available, but we'll disregard that in addition to the better durability, especially under load, that the diesel provides. I get 17 to 18 mpg in town, and most trucks of similar capability with gas engines seem to get around 10 to 12 mpg in town. With that difference, at $2.75 a gallon (it'll be going up), there is a difference of $4600 at 50k miles. Under load there can be a 5 to 1 difference. For me it was a no brainer to get the diesel, and I've ended up 'selling' three other diesel pickups as coworkers and friends have replaced their gassers. A fourth soon from what I hear.
 

9c1

Messages
323
Location
Berwyn, IL
I just noticed that with gas up to 3.35 or so around here -- diesel is at 2.93 or so. Diesel might be looking like a better choice as time goes on. Terry
 
Messages
1,187
Location
Southern Vermont
quote:
Originally posted by KW: Short answer is the Clinton BTU tax made diesel and propane expensive
For taxes to be signed into law, they must pass both houses of Congress. When was this tax put into effect? And who controlled Congress at that time?
 
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