Fwd versus Rwd
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Originally Posted by supton
I like FWD in snow but they can suffer going up hills. They are also often built low(er) to the ground--not always of course but often--so they can get high ended. Snow tires go a long ways to evening out the terrain, so to speak.
Reminds me of the time I was driving a FWD up a steep hill. I was going slow and the hill was icy so eventually it lost traction and it eventually slowed and giving it gas did nothing. I hit the brakes and was going to go back down again to try again, but when I hit the brakes, the front of the car just swung around so it was pointing at the bottom of the hill! Didn't even have to turn around. There was no traffic so I just headed down again and got a good running start up the hill so that the speed carried me over the top.
Talk about front heavy, the weight just swung it around like a pendulum.
I like FWD in snow but they can suffer going up hills. They are also often built low(er) to the ground--not always of course but often--so they can get high ended. Snow tires go a long ways to evening out the terrain, so to speak.
Reminds me of the time I was driving a FWD up a steep hill. I was going slow and the hill was icy so eventually it lost traction and it eventually slowed and giving it gas did nothing. I hit the brakes and was going to go back down again to try again, but when I hit the brakes, the front of the car just swung around so it was pointing at the bottom of the hill! Didn't even have to turn around. There was no traffic so I just headed down again and got a good running start up the hill so that the speed carried me over the top.
Talk about front heavy, the weight just swung it around like a pendulum.
Originally Posted by Shannow
FWD the driver is scared
RWD the passengers are scared.
I have never agreed more with a random person on the internet more in my life lol
FWD the driver is scared
RWD the passengers are scared.
I have never agreed more with a random person on the internet more in my life lol
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FWD is better in snow, but there are some FWD cars that are exceptionally bad in snow (those which have a lot of torque steer-Toyota, Honda, heck my AWD Toyota has torque steer, I cannot imagine how horrible is in FWD model) and some that are exceptionally good (Audi and VW).
Reason, beside suspension set up, is position of an engine. VW brands tend to have engine that "hangs" over axle. Not fun in curves in dry or wet, but in snow, it is essential. Audi on top of excellent suspension has longitudinal engine that truly hangs in front of axle, somewhere around headlight washers. Add to that that in US most Audi's are Quattro, and they are truly remarkable in snow. But, there is always that understeer feeling, and there is even term "Audisteer."
Someone mentioned space with FWD. Yes if engines are transverse. Audi A4 for example has longitudinal engine and they were probably worse FWD cars with space utilization.
Reason, beside suspension set up, is position of an engine. VW brands tend to have engine that "hangs" over axle. Not fun in curves in dry or wet, but in snow, it is essential. Audi on top of excellent suspension has longitudinal engine that truly hangs in front of axle, somewhere around headlight washers. Add to that that in US most Audi's are Quattro, and they are truly remarkable in snow. But, there is always that understeer feeling, and there is even term "Audisteer."
Someone mentioned space with FWD. Yes if engines are transverse. Audi A4 for example has longitudinal engine and they were probably worse FWD cars with space utilization.
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Originally Posted by dbias
i've experienced wildly different results btwn varied types of vehicles.
Nissan Pulsar FWD with manual transmission with all season tires would go anywhere in the snow. Drove to work one morning after an 18 inch overnight snow fall and literally pushed snow that came up on the hood in some drift areas.
F350 4x4 single rear wheel with all season tires as expected would go anywhere in the snow. Went weaving through several 4x4 Duallys on a really snowy and icy road. I suspect the dually tires didnt help them as opposed to the single tire i had in the back.
Mustang GT Manual trans RWD of course would only go in the snow if i went to the grocery store and filled the hatch area full of 40lb water softener bags then it was not quite as scary, weight over the driving wheels definitely helped.... kept the receipt and returned all the salt in the spring. ...‚
Audi A4 Quattro with DSG and all season tires.Haven't had any problems as expected. Nice thing about the Quattro system is if it is really bad out the Quattro system will keep all wheels spinning at the same time instead of the front tires spin, rear tires spin that some AWD systems do, (cough cough looking at you VW Haldex and others lol). By having all wheels spinning at the same time, all the time, it helps with traction, momentum, and predictability with steering inputs. The Quattro pulls so well there is a good danger in underestimating stopping conditions because as important as getting going is it is more important to be able to stop, which is where real winter tires help.
Quattro is really good. But what helps Audi and VW is engine that hangs in front. Both Audi and VW have Haldex (A3,2, 1) but they are both exceptionally good in snow. You know when Audi fans put on youtube how their A6 is so accurate in cone avoidance compare to BMW and Mercedes? That is because so much weight is in front. Quattro helps, a lot, but there is more to it. FWD Audi's are also really good in snow as well as VW's.
But, than this happens when one pushes limits:
i've experienced wildly different results btwn varied types of vehicles.
Nissan Pulsar FWD with manual transmission with all season tires would go anywhere in the snow. Drove to work one morning after an 18 inch overnight snow fall and literally pushed snow that came up on the hood in some drift areas.
F350 4x4 single rear wheel with all season tires as expected would go anywhere in the snow. Went weaving through several 4x4 Duallys on a really snowy and icy road. I suspect the dually tires didnt help them as opposed to the single tire i had in the back.
Mustang GT Manual trans RWD of course would only go in the snow if i went to the grocery store and filled the hatch area full of 40lb water softener bags then it was not quite as scary, weight over the driving wheels definitely helped.... kept the receipt and returned all the salt in the spring. ...‚
Audi A4 Quattro with DSG and all season tires.Haven't had any problems as expected. Nice thing about the Quattro system is if it is really bad out the Quattro system will keep all wheels spinning at the same time instead of the front tires spin, rear tires spin that some AWD systems do, (cough cough looking at you VW Haldex and others lol). By having all wheels spinning at the same time, all the time, it helps with traction, momentum, and predictability with steering inputs. The Quattro pulls so well there is a good danger in underestimating stopping conditions because as important as getting going is it is more important to be able to stop, which is where real winter tires help.
Quattro is really good. But what helps Audi and VW is engine that hangs in front. Both Audi and VW have Haldex (A3,2, 1) but they are both exceptionally good in snow. You know when Audi fans put on youtube how their A6 is so accurate in cone avoidance compare to BMW and Mercedes? That is because so much weight is in front. Quattro helps, a lot, but there is more to it. FWD Audi's are also really good in snow as well as VW's.
But, than this happens when one pushes limits:
Last edited:
My Jetta sucks in the snow for being FWD. My BMW is AMAZING in the snow with just all seasons but it's AWD too.
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by dbias
i've experienced wildly different results btwn varied types of vehicles.
Nissan Pulsar FWD with manual transmission with all season tires would go anywhere in the snow. Drove to work one morning after an 18 inch overnight snow fall and literally pushed snow that came up on the hood in some drift areas.
F350 4x4 single rear wheel with all season tires as expected would go anywhere in the snow. Went weaving through several 4x4 Duallys on a really snowy and icy road. I suspect the dually tires didnt help them as opposed to the single tire i had in the back.
Mustang GT Manual trans RWD of course would only go in the snow if i went to the grocery store and filled the hatch area full of 40lb water softener bags then it was not quite as scary, weight over the driving wheels definitely helped.... kept the receipt and returned all the salt in the spring. ...‚
Audi A4 Quattro with DSG and all season tires.Haven't had any problems as expected. Nice thing about the Quattro system is if it is really bad out the Quattro system will keep all wheels spinning at the same time instead of the front tires spin, rear tires spin that some AWD systems do, (cough cough looking at you VW Haldex and others lol). By having all wheels spinning at the same time, all the time, it helps with traction, momentum, and predictability with steering inputs. The Quattro pulls so well there is a good danger in underestimating stopping conditions because as important as getting going is it is more important to be able to stop, which is where real winter tires help.
Quattro is really good. But what helps Audi and VW is engine that hangs in front. Both Audi and VW have Haldex (A3,2, 1) but they are both exceptionally good in snow. You know when Audi fans put on youtube how their A6 is so accurate in cone avoidance compare to BMW and Mercedes? That is because so much weight is in front. Quattro helps, a lot, but there is more to it. FWD Audi's are also really good in snow as well as VW's.
But, than this happens when one pushes limits:
Even when it comes to Audi, there are differences between Torsen and Haldex systems
https://youtu.be/dgX4vJYx-4U
Originally Posted by dbias
i've experienced wildly different results btwn varied types of vehicles.
Nissan Pulsar FWD with manual transmission with all season tires would go anywhere in the snow. Drove to work one morning after an 18 inch overnight snow fall and literally pushed snow that came up on the hood in some drift areas.
F350 4x4 single rear wheel with all season tires as expected would go anywhere in the snow. Went weaving through several 4x4 Duallys on a really snowy and icy road. I suspect the dually tires didnt help them as opposed to the single tire i had in the back.
Mustang GT Manual trans RWD of course would only go in the snow if i went to the grocery store and filled the hatch area full of 40lb water softener bags then it was not quite as scary, weight over the driving wheels definitely helped.... kept the receipt and returned all the salt in the spring. ...‚
Audi A4 Quattro with DSG and all season tires.Haven't had any problems as expected. Nice thing about the Quattro system is if it is really bad out the Quattro system will keep all wheels spinning at the same time instead of the front tires spin, rear tires spin that some AWD systems do, (cough cough looking at you VW Haldex and others lol). By having all wheels spinning at the same time, all the time, it helps with traction, momentum, and predictability with steering inputs. The Quattro pulls so well there is a good danger in underestimating stopping conditions because as important as getting going is it is more important to be able to stop, which is where real winter tires help.
Quattro is really good. But what helps Audi and VW is engine that hangs in front. Both Audi and VW have Haldex (A3,2, 1) but they are both exceptionally good in snow. You know when Audi fans put on youtube how their A6 is so accurate in cone avoidance compare to BMW and Mercedes? That is because so much weight is in front. Quattro helps, a lot, but there is more to it. FWD Audi's are also really good in snow as well as VW's.
But, than this happens when one pushes limits:
Even when it comes to Audi, there are differences between Torsen and Haldex systems
https://youtu.be/dgX4vJYx-4U
edyvw
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Originally Posted by SEMI_287
My Jetta sucks in the snow for being FWD. My BMW is AMAZING in the snow with just all seasons but it's AWD too.
IDK< Jetta for US market might have different suspension settings.
ANY AWD will go forward, but generally BMW are extremely RWD biased. I always say BMW AWD is car that prevents you to kill yourself in snow.
My Jetta sucks in the snow for being FWD. My BMW is AMAZING in the snow with just all seasons but it's AWD too.
IDK< Jetta for US market might have different suspension settings.
ANY AWD will go forward, but generally BMW are extremely RWD biased. I always say BMW AWD is car that prevents you to kill yourself in snow.
edyvw
$50 site donor 2026
Originally Posted by dbias
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by dbias
i've experienced wildly different results btwn varied types of vehicles.
Nissan Pulsar FWD with manual transmission with all season tires would go anywhere in the snow. Drove to work one morning after an 18 inch overnight snow fall and literally pushed snow that came up on the hood in some drift areas.
F350 4x4 single rear wheel with all season tires as expected would go anywhere in the snow. Went weaving through several 4x4 Duallys on a really snowy and icy road. I suspect the dually tires didnt help them as opposed to the single tire i had in the back.
Mustang GT Manual trans RWD of course would only go in the snow if i went to the grocery store and filled the hatch area full of 40lb water softener bags then it was not quite as scary, weight over the driving wheels definitely helped.... kept the receipt and returned all the salt in the spring. ...‚
Audi A4 Quattro with DSG and all season tires.Haven't had any problems as expected. Nice thing about the Quattro system is if it is really bad out the Quattro system will keep all wheels spinning at the same time instead of the front tires spin, rear tires spin that some AWD systems do, (cough cough looking at you VW Haldex and others lol). By having all wheels spinning at the same time, all the time, it helps with traction, momentum, and predictability with steering inputs. The Quattro pulls so well there is a good danger in underestimating stopping conditions because as important as getting going is it is more important to be able to stop, which is where real winter tires help.
Quattro is really good. But what helps Audi and VW is engine that hangs in front. Both Audi and VW have Haldex (A3,2, 1) but they are both exceptionally good in snow. You know when Audi fans put on youtube how their A6 is so accurate in cone avoidance compare to BMW and Mercedes? That is because so much weight is in front. Quattro helps, a lot, but there is more to it. FWD Audi's are also really good in snow as well as VW's.
But, than this happens when one pushes limits:
Even when it comes to Audi, there are differences between Torsen and Haldex systems
https://youtu.be/dgX4vJYx-4U
Of course, but Haldex from the beginning was idea to just have something in the back to give you a bit of "nudge." How effective it is depends also of weight distribution, tires etc. My Tiguan was much more aggressive in snow than my BMW X5. That is bcs. of narrow snow tires, very short wheel base etc. Difference is once I got stuck both cars to see how AWD in each does in those circumstances. It is obvious haldex cannot figure out how to get out, while xDrive figure out fast which wheel needs most power. Still in the Rockies, with good, narrow snows, I would have to say Tiguan is better then extremely RWD bias X5. Audi is completely different animal.
That video on other hand shows shortcomings of Audi set up, where engine is so far in the front.
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by dbias
i've experienced wildly different results btwn varied types of vehicles.
Nissan Pulsar FWD with manual transmission with all season tires would go anywhere in the snow. Drove to work one morning after an 18 inch overnight snow fall and literally pushed snow that came up on the hood in some drift areas.
F350 4x4 single rear wheel with all season tires as expected would go anywhere in the snow. Went weaving through several 4x4 Duallys on a really snowy and icy road. I suspect the dually tires didnt help them as opposed to the single tire i had in the back.
Mustang GT Manual trans RWD of course would only go in the snow if i went to the grocery store and filled the hatch area full of 40lb water softener bags then it was not quite as scary, weight over the driving wheels definitely helped.... kept the receipt and returned all the salt in the spring. ...‚
Audi A4 Quattro with DSG and all season tires.Haven't had any problems as expected. Nice thing about the Quattro system is if it is really bad out the Quattro system will keep all wheels spinning at the same time instead of the front tires spin, rear tires spin that some AWD systems do, (cough cough looking at you VW Haldex and others lol). By having all wheels spinning at the same time, all the time, it helps with traction, momentum, and predictability with steering inputs. The Quattro pulls so well there is a good danger in underestimating stopping conditions because as important as getting going is it is more important to be able to stop, which is where real winter tires help.
Quattro is really good. But what helps Audi and VW is engine that hangs in front. Both Audi and VW have Haldex (A3,2, 1) but they are both exceptionally good in snow. You know when Audi fans put on youtube how their A6 is so accurate in cone avoidance compare to BMW and Mercedes? That is because so much weight is in front. Quattro helps, a lot, but there is more to it. FWD Audi's are also really good in snow as well as VW's.
But, than this happens when one pushes limits:
Even when it comes to Audi, there are differences between Torsen and Haldex systems
https://youtu.be/dgX4vJYx-4U
Of course, but Haldex from the beginning was idea to just have something in the back to give you a bit of "nudge." How effective it is depends also of weight distribution, tires etc. My Tiguan was much more aggressive in snow than my BMW X5. That is bcs. of narrow snow tires, very short wheel base etc. Difference is once I got stuck both cars to see how AWD in each does in those circumstances. It is obvious haldex cannot figure out how to get out, while xDrive figure out fast which wheel needs most power. Still in the Rockies, with good, narrow snows, I would have to say Tiguan is better then extremely RWD bias X5. Audi is completely different animal.
That video on other hand shows shortcomings of Audi set up, where engine is so far in the front.
Last edited:
Originally Posted by Skippy722
I personally prefer RWD and RWD based AWD/4x4 systems. And I'd rather deal with oversteer than understeer.
Same here, although my 2007 Mazdaspeed 3 was a fun car(I bought it so I could learn how to drive FWD on the track and pass the knowledge on to my HPDE students). It was amazing how much Koni FSDs and 50% greater rear roll stiffness transformed the car. That said, I really dislike FWD in anything much larger than a Mini- hence the reason I have the Clubman for my commuter car...
I personally prefer RWD and RWD based AWD/4x4 systems. And I'd rather deal with oversteer than understeer.
Same here, although my 2007 Mazdaspeed 3 was a fun car(I bought it so I could learn how to drive FWD on the track and pass the knowledge on to my HPDE students). It was amazing how much Koni FSDs and 50% greater rear roll stiffness transformed the car. That said, I really dislike FWD in anything much larger than a Mini- hence the reason I have the Clubman for my commuter car...
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Originally Posted by MCompact
Originally Posted by Skippy722
I personally prefer RWD and RWD based AWD/4x4 systems. And I'd rather deal with oversteer than understeer.
Same here, although my 2007 Mazdaspeed 3 was a fun car(I bought it so I could learn how to drive FWD on the track and pass the knowledge on to my HPDE students). It was amazing how much Koni FSDs and 50% greater rear roll stiffness transformed the car. That said, I really dislike FWD in anything much larger than a Mini- hence the reason I have the Clubman for my commuter car...
I purposely pushed Tiguan to limit, and once it looses grip, holy moly. Than Haldex does some strange rotation, one has no idea where is rear end.
BMW was easy, it would oversteer in snow easily, but very easy to control it.
I remember in Bosnia, in my city there is this very strange long curve. People would race, and long time ago they would race in those early 1980's Audi 80's or Passats with longitudinal engines. But, that curve probably had by far most VW/Audi's in trees than any other vehicles. Most were by far FWD, as Quattro until recently was very rare generally due to price. When that Audi 80 looses control, you can only pray, whether one believes in God or not.
Originally Posted by Skippy722
I personally prefer RWD and RWD based AWD/4x4 systems. And I'd rather deal with oversteer than understeer.
Same here, although my 2007 Mazdaspeed 3 was a fun car(I bought it so I could learn how to drive FWD on the track and pass the knowledge on to my HPDE students). It was amazing how much Koni FSDs and 50% greater rear roll stiffness transformed the car. That said, I really dislike FWD in anything much larger than a Mini- hence the reason I have the Clubman for my commuter car...
I purposely pushed Tiguan to limit, and once it looses grip, holy moly. Than Haldex does some strange rotation, one has no idea where is rear end.
BMW was easy, it would oversteer in snow easily, but very easy to control it.
I remember in Bosnia, in my city there is this very strange long curve. People would race, and long time ago they would race in those early 1980's Audi 80's or Passats with longitudinal engines. But, that curve probably had by far most VW/Audi's in trees than any other vehicles. Most were by far FWD, as Quattro until recently was very rare generally due to price. When that Audi 80 looses control, you can only pray, whether one believes in God or not.
Originally Posted by edyvw
I purposely pushed Tiguan to limit, and once it looses grip, holy moly. Than Haldex does some strange rotation, one has no idea where is rear end.
BMW was easy, it would oversteer in snow easily, but very easy to control it.
I remember in Bosnia, in my city there is this very strange long curve. People would race, and long time ago they would race in those early 1980's Audi 80's or Passats with longitudinal engines. But, that curve probably had by far most VW/Audi's in trees than any other vehicles. Most were by far FWD, as Quattro until recently was very rare generally due to price. When that Audi 80 looses control, you can only pray, whether one believes in God or not.
My Durango used Jeep's Quadra-Trac II system. Variable torque split with a "brake lock differential" system. It was very very smooth and linear, but being heavily RWD biased by it sent power to the front as needed.
V6 models used Quadra-Trac I, a permanent 50-50 split in power front to rear with the same BLD system. Both were absolute tanks that never did anything squirrelly.
I purposely pushed Tiguan to limit, and once it looses grip, holy moly. Than Haldex does some strange rotation, one has no idea where is rear end.
BMW was easy, it would oversteer in snow easily, but very easy to control it.
I remember in Bosnia, in my city there is this very strange long curve. People would race, and long time ago they would race in those early 1980's Audi 80's or Passats with longitudinal engines. But, that curve probably had by far most VW/Audi's in trees than any other vehicles. Most were by far FWD, as Quattro until recently was very rare generally due to price. When that Audi 80 looses control, you can only pray, whether one believes in God or not.
My Durango used Jeep's Quadra-Trac II system. Variable torque split with a "brake lock differential" system. It was very very smooth and linear, but being heavily RWD biased by it sent power to the front as needed.
V6 models used Quadra-Trac I, a permanent 50-50 split in power front to rear with the same BLD system. Both were absolute tanks that never did anything squirrelly.
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Originally Posted by Skippy722
Originally Posted by edyvw
I purposely pushed Tiguan to limit, and once it looses grip, holy moly. Than Haldex does some strange rotation, one has no idea where is rear end.
BMW was easy, it would oversteer in snow easily, but very easy to control it.
I remember in Bosnia, in my city there is this very strange long curve. People would race, and long time ago they would race in those early 1980's Audi 80's or Passats with longitudinal engines. But, that curve probably had by far most VW/Audi's in trees than any other vehicles. Most were by far FWD, as Quattro until recently was very rare generally due to price. When that Audi 80 looses control, you can only pray, whether one believes in God or not.
My Durango used Jeep's Quadra-Trac II system. Variable torque split with a "brake lock differential" system. It was very very smooth and linear, but being heavily RWD biased by it sent power to the front as needed.
V6 models used Quadra-Trac I, a permanent 50-50 split in power front to rear with the same BLD system. Both were absolute tanks that never did anything squirrelly.
Durango's use Mercedes platform. Reason for particularly bad understeer that Audi/VW has is FWD (or much higher limit, AWD, especially quattro) is position of an engine which sits far ahead to the front. Audi because of their signature Torsen AWD cannot push engine too much to the back, so it is choice basically. Audi is known for AWD, and it is their selling pint, so they bet on that. Mercedes has engine pushed back (not like BMW though) so it is more neutral, but it would loose battle with Audi in snow, period, regardless of AWD system. Reason for that is that position of an engine that hangs over axle.
Originally Posted by edyvw
I purposely pushed Tiguan to limit, and once it looses grip, holy moly. Than Haldex does some strange rotation, one has no idea where is rear end.
BMW was easy, it would oversteer in snow easily, but very easy to control it.
I remember in Bosnia, in my city there is this very strange long curve. People would race, and long time ago they would race in those early 1980's Audi 80's or Passats with longitudinal engines. But, that curve probably had by far most VW/Audi's in trees than any other vehicles. Most were by far FWD, as Quattro until recently was very rare generally due to price. When that Audi 80 looses control, you can only pray, whether one believes in God or not.
My Durango used Jeep's Quadra-Trac II system. Variable torque split with a "brake lock differential" system. It was very very smooth and linear, but being heavily RWD biased by it sent power to the front as needed.
V6 models used Quadra-Trac I, a permanent 50-50 split in power front to rear with the same BLD system. Both were absolute tanks that never did anything squirrelly.
Durango's use Mercedes platform. Reason for particularly bad understeer that Audi/VW has is FWD (or much higher limit, AWD, especially quattro) is position of an engine which sits far ahead to the front. Audi because of their signature Torsen AWD cannot push engine too much to the back, so it is choice basically. Audi is known for AWD, and it is their selling pint, so they bet on that. Mercedes has engine pushed back (not like BMW though) so it is more neutral, but it would loose battle with Audi in snow, period, regardless of AWD system. Reason for that is that position of an engine that hangs over axle.
This is my 22nd winter of driving one RWD 3 series BMW or another. All have had snow tires. Loved every minute of it, would never want anything else. Commuted to Chicago for a couple of years, went to college with an 80-mile commute - never a problem, never got stuck, never in the ditch, no accidents. I tend to buy sport-package cars so they're around 1-1.5" lower than stock, which are already lower than the AWD variants. That can make a difference if snow depths are greater than 4" or so, but even in Minnesota that's not as common as you'd think. Not worth sacrificing the fun of the other 362 days a year.
My $.02 is it's a lot better to have a controllable car - and know how to control it - than anything else.
My $.02 is it's a lot better to have a controllable car - and know how to control it - than anything else.
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Originally Posted by Skippy722
Originally Posted by edyvw
I purposely pushed Tiguan to limit, and once it looses grip, holy moly. Than Haldex does some strange rotation, one has no idea where is rear end.
BMW was easy, it would oversteer in snow easily, but very easy to control it.
I remember in Bosnia, in my city there is this very strange long curve. People would race, and long time ago they would race in those early 1980's Audi 80's or Passats with longitudinal engines. But, that curve probably had by far most VW/Audi's in trees than any other vehicles. Most were by far FWD, as Quattro until recently was very rare generally due to price. When that Audi 80 looses control, you can only pray, whether one believes in God or not.
My Durango used Jeep's Quadra-Trac II system. Variable torque split with a "brake lock differential" system. It was very very smooth and linear, but being heavily RWD biased by it sent power to the front as needed.
V6 models used Quadra-Trac I, a permanent 50-50 split in power front to rear with the same BLD system. Both were absolute tanks that never did anything squirrelly.
What year was your Durango?
Originally Posted by edyvw
I purposely pushed Tiguan to limit, and once it looses grip, holy moly. Than Haldex does some strange rotation, one has no idea where is rear end.
BMW was easy, it would oversteer in snow easily, but very easy to control it.
I remember in Bosnia, in my city there is this very strange long curve. People would race, and long time ago they would race in those early 1980's Audi 80's or Passats with longitudinal engines. But, that curve probably had by far most VW/Audi's in trees than any other vehicles. Most were by far FWD, as Quattro until recently was very rare generally due to price. When that Audi 80 looses control, you can only pray, whether one believes in God or not.
My Durango used Jeep's Quadra-Trac II system. Variable torque split with a "brake lock differential" system. It was very very smooth and linear, but being heavily RWD biased by it sent power to the front as needed.
V6 models used Quadra-Trac I, a permanent 50-50 split in power front to rear with the same BLD system. Both were absolute tanks that never did anything squirrelly.
What year was your Durango?
I grew up in basically the foothills of the appalachians.
Back when 95% of vehicles were RWD, we all owned chains; we had to. And to get anywhere, we put them on. And took them off. and put them back on. Chains were pretty limited in speed and don't do well on dry pavement. The elastic bungees could fail if you went too fast and snag something or damage some paint.
Then FWD became common. Chains were no longer needed, and you could pretty much get anywhere you needed without doing anything except adjust your driving and your expectations. Add snow tires, and FWD became quite capable.
I prefer the driving feel of RWD, still. But FWD is a better architecture to live with in terms of packaging, efficiency, and all-around normal driving in inclement weather. It simply puts weight over the wheels doing 3/4 of the work.
Back when 95% of vehicles were RWD, we all owned chains; we had to. And to get anywhere, we put them on. And took them off. and put them back on. Chains were pretty limited in speed and don't do well on dry pavement. The elastic bungees could fail if you went too fast and snag something or damage some paint.
Then FWD became common. Chains were no longer needed, and you could pretty much get anywhere you needed without doing anything except adjust your driving and your expectations. Add snow tires, and FWD became quite capable.
I prefer the driving feel of RWD, still. But FWD is a better architecture to live with in terms of packaging, efficiency, and all-around normal driving in inclement weather. It simply puts weight over the wheels doing 3/4 of the work.
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Originally Posted by antonmnster
This is my 22nd winter of driving one RWD 3 series BMW or another. All have had snow tires. Loved every minute of it, would never want anything else. Commuted to Chicago for a couple of years, went to college with an 80-mile commute - never a problem, never got stuck, never in the ditch, no accidents. I tend to buy sport-package cars so they're around 1-1.5" lower than stock, which are already lower than the AWD variants. That can make a difference if snow depths are greater than 4" or so, but even in Minnesota that's not as common as you'd think. Not worth sacrificing the fun of the other 362 days a year.
My $.02 is it's a lot better to have a controllable car - and know how to control it - than anything else.
Next year I want to get E90 335i with stick. But since in winter I spend driving local roads in the Rocky Mountains like twice a week, AWD makes sense. Chicago is different, it is flat, although more snow. but when one has to negotiate 11,500ft mountain pass during blizzard, AWD really comes handy with snow tires.
But, nothing beats RWD in 3 series with sport package or M package.
This is my 22nd winter of driving one RWD 3 series BMW or another. All have had snow tires. Loved every minute of it, would never want anything else. Commuted to Chicago for a couple of years, went to college with an 80-mile commute - never a problem, never got stuck, never in the ditch, no accidents. I tend to buy sport-package cars so they're around 1-1.5" lower than stock, which are already lower than the AWD variants. That can make a difference if snow depths are greater than 4" or so, but even in Minnesota that's not as common as you'd think. Not worth sacrificing the fun of the other 362 days a year.
My $.02 is it's a lot better to have a controllable car - and know how to control it - than anything else.
Next year I want to get E90 335i with stick. But since in winter I spend driving local roads in the Rocky Mountains like twice a week, AWD makes sense. Chicago is different, it is flat, although more snow. but when one has to negotiate 11,500ft mountain pass during blizzard, AWD really comes handy with snow tires.
But, nothing beats RWD in 3 series with sport package or M package.
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by Skippy722
My Durango used Jeep's Quadra-Trac II system. Variable torque split with a "brake lock differential" system. It was very very smooth and linear, but being heavily RWD biased by it sent power to the front as needed.
V6 models used Quadra-Trac I, a permanent 50-50 split in power front to rear with the same BLD system. Both were absolute tanks that never did anything squirrelly.
Durango's use Mercedes platform
Which gen Durangos do you speak of?
First gen's introduced Quadra-Trac II in 1999, Daimler bought Chrysler in 1998 and the AWD system uses standard New Venture AWD components, like most Jeep and Dodge vehicles do. I don't see any Daimler influence there, I don't think they had time to influence that design.
What I learned while looking up these dates, is that Quadra-Trac I came after II, 2004 versus 1999.
I'm not sure what the current, 3rd gen Durangos use.
Originally Posted by Skippy722
My Durango used Jeep's Quadra-Trac II system. Variable torque split with a "brake lock differential" system. It was very very smooth and linear, but being heavily RWD biased by it sent power to the front as needed.
V6 models used Quadra-Trac I, a permanent 50-50 split in power front to rear with the same BLD system. Both were absolute tanks that never did anything squirrelly.
Durango's use Mercedes platform
Which gen Durangos do you speak of?
First gen's introduced Quadra-Trac II in 1999, Daimler bought Chrysler in 1998 and the AWD system uses standard New Venture AWD components, like most Jeep and Dodge vehicles do. I don't see any Daimler influence there, I don't think they had time to influence that design.
What I learned while looking up these dates, is that Quadra-Trac I came after II, 2004 versus 1999.
I'm not sure what the current, 3rd gen Durangos use.
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Originally Posted by HangFire
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by Skippy722
My Durango used Jeep's Quadra-Trac II system. Variable torque split with a "brake lock differential" system. It was very very smooth and linear, but being heavily RWD biased by it sent power to the front as needed.
V6 models used Quadra-Trac I, a permanent 50-50 split in power front to rear with the same BLD system. Both were absolute tanks that never did anything squirrelly.
Durango's use Mercedes platform
Which gen Durangos do you speak of?
First gen's introduced Quadra-Trac II in 1999, Daimler bought Chrysler in 1998 and the AWD system uses standard New Venture AWD components, like most Jeep and Dodge vehicles do. I don't see any Daimler influence there, I don't think they had time to influence that design.
What I learned while looking up these dates, is that Quadra-Trac I came after II, 2004 versus 1999.
I'm not sure what the current, 3rd gen Durangos use.
Current Durango and Jeep Grand Cherokee are on the same platform, which is shared with Mercedes and your query is in-line with mine regarding the year.
- 1st gen Durango was based on the Dakota
- 2nd gen Durango was based on the Dakota
- 3rd gen Durango is based on the W166 Mercedes platform
The V6 Durango has the MP 3010 transfer case (according to the FCA Spec Sheet), which is called "Quadra-Trac Active on Demand" and features:
Quote
The MP3010 is a single speed transfer case which provides convenient full-time all-wheel-drive. No driver interaction is required. The DTCM module governs the torque split between the front and rear axle. Driving down a straight line on a dry surface the transfer case sends 47 percent of the torque to the front axle and 53 percent of torque to the rear axle. This four-wheel drive (4WD) system allows front and rear wheels to rotate at different speeds when required by the road condition or road surface.
The V8 Durango has the MP 3023 transfer case (according to the FCA Spec Sheet) which is Quadra-Trac II I believe, since the spec sheet doesn't list the limited-slip diff for it to be Quadra-drive II.
Interestingly, my 6.4L is backed by the MP 3010, so it is always powering all four wheels. I believe standard power distribution is a 60/40 (rear biased) split. You put it in "snow" and it goes to 50/50.
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by Skippy722
My Durango used Jeep's Quadra-Trac II system. Variable torque split with a "brake lock differential" system. It was very very smooth and linear, but being heavily RWD biased by it sent power to the front as needed.
V6 models used Quadra-Trac I, a permanent 50-50 split in power front to rear with the same BLD system. Both were absolute tanks that never did anything squirrelly.
Durango's use Mercedes platform
Which gen Durangos do you speak of?
First gen's introduced Quadra-Trac II in 1999, Daimler bought Chrysler in 1998 and the AWD system uses standard New Venture AWD components, like most Jeep and Dodge vehicles do. I don't see any Daimler influence there, I don't think they had time to influence that design.
What I learned while looking up these dates, is that Quadra-Trac I came after II, 2004 versus 1999.
I'm not sure what the current, 3rd gen Durangos use.
Current Durango and Jeep Grand Cherokee are on the same platform, which is shared with Mercedes and your query is in-line with mine regarding the year.
- 1st gen Durango was based on the Dakota
- 2nd gen Durango was based on the Dakota
- 3rd gen Durango is based on the W166 Mercedes platform
The V6 Durango has the MP 3010 transfer case (according to the FCA Spec Sheet), which is called "Quadra-Trac Active on Demand" and features:
Quote
The MP3010 is a single speed transfer case which provides convenient full-time all-wheel-drive. No driver interaction is required. The DTCM module governs the torque split between the front and rear axle. Driving down a straight line on a dry surface the transfer case sends 47 percent of the torque to the front axle and 53 percent of torque to the rear axle. This four-wheel drive (4WD) system allows front and rear wheels to rotate at different speeds when required by the road condition or road surface.
The V8 Durango has the MP 3023 transfer case (according to the FCA Spec Sheet) which is Quadra-Trac II I believe, since the spec sheet doesn't list the limited-slip diff for it to be Quadra-drive II.
Interestingly, my 6.4L is backed by the MP 3010, so it is always powering all four wheels. I believe standard power distribution is a 60/40 (rear biased) split. You put it in "snow" and it goes to 50/50.
I've driven plenty of both since I'm now past sixty and grew up on what is called the "North Coast" in that part of the state.
While RWD and FWD feel a bit different each has its strengths and weaknesses.
Weight in the car can only degrade FWD performance in deep snow while it can only improve that of a RWD.
Uphill, RWD is preferable.
I'd drive either in snow without any qualms as I have.
Tires do matter and I suspect that a lot of those who have trouble in the snow are driving on OEM summer performance tires rather than all seasons or dedicated winters.
AWD is superior to either and a Subaru is really effortless in slick conditions.
That's why my wife drives one.
Dedicated winter tires do make a real difference. We've had them in the past but I found the compromises involved in anything other than really lousy winter conditions to be unacceptably high and 99% of one's winter driving will be on clean roads.
Back in the early seventies we had truly lousy bias belted tires yet even those were okay for those who had grown up in the land of snow.
I recall that the first radials I drove on were a revelation in their ability to handle winter conditions as well as rain.
Anyway, I'm fine with anything since driven sensibly for conditions with the skills developed over decades of winter driving I know that there won't be any surprises.
You feel out any new-to-you vehicle/tire combo and you go from there.
While RWD and FWD feel a bit different each has its strengths and weaknesses.
Weight in the car can only degrade FWD performance in deep snow while it can only improve that of a RWD.
Uphill, RWD is preferable.
I'd drive either in snow without any qualms as I have.
Tires do matter and I suspect that a lot of those who have trouble in the snow are driving on OEM summer performance tires rather than all seasons or dedicated winters.
AWD is superior to either and a Subaru is really effortless in slick conditions.
That's why my wife drives one.
Dedicated winter tires do make a real difference. We've had them in the past but I found the compromises involved in anything other than really lousy winter conditions to be unacceptably high and 99% of one's winter driving will be on clean roads.
Back in the early seventies we had truly lousy bias belted tires yet even those were okay for those who had grown up in the land of snow.
I recall that the first radials I drove on were a revelation in their ability to handle winter conditions as well as rain.
Anyway, I'm fine with anything since driven sensibly for conditions with the skills developed over decades of winter driving I know that there won't be any surprises.
You feel out any new-to-you vehicle/tire combo and you go from there.
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