Given the same winter conditions, what is the difference between these two?
Fwd versus Rwd
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It's going to depend a lot on the specific vehicles, tires, terrain and what you actually mean by "winter conditions".
In general, assuming the same tires on both vehicles and some sort of snow/ice on the road FWD will do better than RWD in terms of the amount of grip the driving wheels get because there's more weight (engine and transmission) over the driven wheels on a FWD vehicle.
Handling-wise RWD will tend to oversteer under power in a slippery turn and FWD will tend to understeer (power pushes the contact patch closer to the edge of the friction circle and once a tire loses grip and starts spinning the coefficient of dynamic friction is less than that of static friction). Of course, traction and stability control systems are going to muddy the waters somewhat so, once again, depends on the specific vehicle.
In general, assuming the same tires on both vehicles and some sort of snow/ice on the road FWD will do better than RWD in terms of the amount of grip the driving wheels get because there's more weight (engine and transmission) over the driven wheels on a FWD vehicle.
Handling-wise RWD will tend to oversteer under power in a slippery turn and FWD will tend to understeer (power pushes the contact patch closer to the edge of the friction circle and once a tire loses grip and starts spinning the coefficient of dynamic friction is less than that of static friction). Of course, traction and stability control systems are going to muddy the waters somewhat so, once again, depends on the specific vehicle.
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Well of course the rwd car will more likely spin out in snow and ice, front wheel drive typically has more weight over the wheels so it's less likely to slip like rwd. Also even if you get a little stuck in ice/snow/slush, you can turn the steering wheel on fwd so you might be able to find spot where you can pull out, with rwd, you're sorta stuck sometimes literally as all you can do is spin the wheels which isn't good for tire life.
Front wheel drive with rear engine - terrible. Front engine with rear wheel drive not quite so bad
For everyday-ness, I prefer FWD.
FWD cars are also have better interior space efficiency per their exterior dimensios due to(mostly) transverse engine layout and the lack of a center drive shaft & rear differential. The lack of a rear differential adds to a larger trunk spice.
FWD cars are also have better interior space efficiency per their exterior dimensios due to(mostly) transverse engine layout and the lack of a center drive shaft & rear differential. The lack of a rear differential adds to a larger trunk spice.
I personally prefer RWD and RWD based AWD/4x4 systems. And I'd rather deal with oversteer than understeer.
Back when I had my Durango, me and a buddy got into a little stop light drag race one where there was about 5-6" of snow on the roads. His Chevy SS with Blizzaks vs my AWD Durango. Light turns green, he takes off like it's just a little wet out, all 4 of my tires just spun. Tires alone can make a huge difference.
Back when I had my Durango, me and a buddy got into a little stop light drag race one where there was about 5-6" of snow on the roads. His Chevy SS with Blizzaks vs my AWD Durango. Light turns green, he takes off like it's just a little wet out, all 4 of my tires just spun. Tires alone can make a huge difference.
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Originally Posted by Wolf359
Well of course the rwd car will more likely spin out in snow and ice, front wheel drive typically has more weight over the wheels so it's less likely to slip like rwd. Also even if you get a little stuck in ice/snow/slush, you can turn the steering wheel on fwd so you might be able to find spot where you can pull out, .
This hints at a less well-known advantage of front drive, which is that its traction advantage over rwd increases in tight, low-speed turns---especially in reverse.
Of course, it's not ALWAYS true that fwd has a higher percentage of total vehicle weight on the driven wheels, but that's usually the case with lightly loaded cars or pickup trucks.
Well of course the rwd car will more likely spin out in snow and ice, front wheel drive typically has more weight over the wheels so it's less likely to slip like rwd. Also even if you get a little stuck in ice/snow/slush, you can turn the steering wheel on fwd so you might be able to find spot where you can pull out, .
This hints at a less well-known advantage of front drive, which is that its traction advantage over rwd increases in tight, low-speed turns---especially in reverse.
Of course, it's not ALWAYS true that fwd has a higher percentage of total vehicle weight on the driven wheels, but that's usually the case with lightly loaded cars or pickup trucks.
There is a reason why my winter car is FWD, and my summer car is RWD.
FWD for going in the snow--- RWD for having fun in the snow.
Originally Posted by Char Baby
For everyday-ness, I prefer FWD.
FWD cars are also have better interior space efficiency per their exterior dimensios due to(mostly) transverse engine layout and the lack of a center drive shaft & rear differential. The lack of a rear differential adds to a larger trunk spice.
I have the Mercedes E-350 4matic which is an AWD setup. You do lose a little space in the rear seat due to the hump in the middle, but the trunk is fine. I feel that while AWD means you never get stuck, the power split is still more toward the rear than front so it still slides out sometimes in turns. Plus they're crazy now with super wide tires so I feel it's worse in the snow than my older FWD drive car that probably had over 60% of the weight on the front wheels. Car has 245's standard and my old car had 215's.
For everyday-ness, I prefer FWD.
FWD cars are also have better interior space efficiency per their exterior dimensios due to(mostly) transverse engine layout and the lack of a center drive shaft & rear differential. The lack of a rear differential adds to a larger trunk spice.
I have the Mercedes E-350 4matic which is an AWD setup. You do lose a little space in the rear seat due to the hump in the middle, but the trunk is fine. I feel that while AWD means you never get stuck, the power split is still more toward the rear than front so it still slides out sometimes in turns. Plus they're crazy now with super wide tires so I feel it's worse in the snow than my older FWD drive car that probably had over 60% of the weight on the front wheels. Car has 245's standard and my old car had 215's.
anything can be decent with the right tires..
yes an 85 cutlass is terrible even in the rain.. but I'd take one with blizzaks over a subaru with 5/32" oem tires in the snow.
Of course put the same subaru on some good winter tires and there is no contest.
yes an 85 cutlass is terrible even in the rain.. but I'd take one with blizzaks over a subaru with 5/32" oem tires in the snow.
Of course put the same subaru on some good winter tires and there is no contest.
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Originally Posted by Char Baby
For everyday-ness, I prefer FWD.
FWD cars are also have better interior space efficiency per their exterior dimensios due to(mostly) transverse engine layout and the lack of a center drive shaft & rear differential. The lack of a rear differential adds to a larger trunk spice.
You have not sat in my Caprice, I could put your Civic in my trunk.
I grew up in New York and we always had FWD stuff from the mid 80's up.
Before that all our stuff was RWD. The FWD stuff was much better in the snow.
For everyday-ness, I prefer FWD.
FWD cars are also have better interior space efficiency per their exterior dimensios due to(mostly) transverse engine layout and the lack of a center drive shaft & rear differential. The lack of a rear differential adds to a larger trunk spice.
You have not sat in my Caprice, I could put your Civic in my trunk.
I grew up in New York and we always had FWD stuff from the mid 80's up.
Before that all our stuff was RWD. The FWD stuff was much better in the snow.
My brother had a RWD Ford Ranger Splash in early 90's. Sporty small pickup with wider tires and no weight in back. He couldn't take off at a stop sign without fish tailing all over. He put snow tires on it and that thing became a beast in the snow. Said it took his fun away since it held so good he no longer could do donuts.
Same time frame my Mom had a Lexus RWD LS400. I had FWD Toronado. Both had sporty wide tires. I could climb the slick hilly driveway and she could not. Even with traction control she could not make the climb.
Also FWD both tires spin and RWD only 1 tire spins due to the way the differential works in the transmission meaning more traction in FWD.
Same time frame my Mom had a Lexus RWD LS400. I had FWD Toronado. Both had sporty wide tires. I could climb the slick hilly driveway and she could not. Even with traction control she could not make the climb.
Also FWD both tires spin and RWD only 1 tire spins due to the way the differential works in the transmission meaning more traction in FWD.
Originally Posted by Skippy722
I personally prefer RWD and RWD based AWD/4x4 systems. And I'd rather deal with oversteer than understeer.
Back when I had my Durango, me and a buddy got into a little stop light drag race one where there was about 5-6" of snow on the roads. His Chevy SS with Blizzaks vs my AWD Durango. Light turns green, he takes off like it's just a little wet out, all 4 of my tires just spun. Tires alone can make a huge difference.
This.
My BMW is RWD and with General Arctic 12 snow tires it surprised me with how well it did in the snow. I drove through 2-3" of snow on upper state NY mountain roads and it did very well. My sister's Acura TL is FWD and even with Michelin Xice tires it is terrible in the snow. I think having so much torque from the 3.2L V6 to the front wheels makes it quite annoying. My Jeep is 4x4 but even with good tires it is terrible in 2WD in the snow, but it is also very light in the rear. The BMW is probably better in the snow because it has better weight distribution and handling.
I personally prefer RWD and RWD based AWD/4x4 systems. And I'd rather deal with oversteer than understeer.
Back when I had my Durango, me and a buddy got into a little stop light drag race one where there was about 5-6" of snow on the roads. His Chevy SS with Blizzaks vs my AWD Durango. Light turns green, he takes off like it's just a little wet out, all 4 of my tires just spun. Tires alone can make a huge difference.
This.
My BMW is RWD and with General Arctic 12 snow tires it surprised me with how well it did in the snow. I drove through 2-3" of snow on upper state NY mountain roads and it did very well. My sister's Acura TL is FWD and even with Michelin Xice tires it is terrible in the snow. I think having so much torque from the 3.2L V6 to the front wheels makes it quite annoying. My Jeep is 4x4 but even with good tires it is terrible in 2WD in the snow, but it is also very light in the rear. The BMW is probably better in the snow because it has better weight distribution and handling.
Originally Posted by jeepman3071
My BMW is RWD and with General Arctic 12 snow tires it surprised me with how well it did in the snow.
Same here. My 530i with Altimax Arctics has been through many Illinois and Michigan winters. No drama, unless I insist on it.
My BMW is RWD and with General Arctic 12 snow tires it surprised me with how well it did in the snow.
Same here. My 530i with Altimax Arctics has been through many Illinois and Michigan winters. No drama, unless I insist on it.
i've experienced wildly different results btwn varied types of vehicles.
Nissan Pulsar FWD with manual transmission with all season tires would go anywhere in the snow. Drove to work one morning after an 18 inch overnight snow fall and literally pushed snow that came up on the hood in some drift areas.
F350 4x4 single rear wheel with all season tires as expected would go anywhere in the snow. Went weaving through several 4x4 Duallys on a really snowy and icy road. I suspect the dually tires didnt help them as opposed to the single tire i had in the back.
Mustang GT Manual trans RWD of course would only go in the snow if i went to the grocery store and filled the hatch area full of 40lb water softener bags then it was not quite as scary, weight over the driving wheels definitely helped.... kept the receipt and returned all the salt in the spring. ...‚
Audi A4 Quattro with DSG and all season tires.Haven't had any problems as expected. Nice thing about the Quattro system is if it is really bad out the Quattro system will keep all wheels spinning at the same time instead of the front tires spin, rear tires spin that some AWD systems do, (cough cough looking at you VW Haldex and others lol). By having all wheels spinning at the same time, all the time, it helps with traction, momentum, and predictability with steering inputs. The Quattro pulls so well there is a good danger in underestimating stopping conditions because as important as getting going is it is more important to be able to stop, which is where real winter tires help.
Nissan Pulsar FWD with manual transmission with all season tires would go anywhere in the snow. Drove to work one morning after an 18 inch overnight snow fall and literally pushed snow that came up on the hood in some drift areas.
F350 4x4 single rear wheel with all season tires as expected would go anywhere in the snow. Went weaving through several 4x4 Duallys on a really snowy and icy road. I suspect the dually tires didnt help them as opposed to the single tire i had in the back.
Mustang GT Manual trans RWD of course would only go in the snow if i went to the grocery store and filled the hatch area full of 40lb water softener bags then it was not quite as scary, weight over the driving wheels definitely helped.... kept the receipt and returned all the salt in the spring. ...‚
Audi A4 Quattro with DSG and all season tires.Haven't had any problems as expected. Nice thing about the Quattro system is if it is really bad out the Quattro system will keep all wheels spinning at the same time instead of the front tires spin, rear tires spin that some AWD systems do, (cough cough looking at you VW Haldex and others lol). By having all wheels spinning at the same time, all the time, it helps with traction, momentum, and predictability with steering inputs. The Quattro pulls so well there is a good danger in underestimating stopping conditions because as important as getting going is it is more important to be able to stop, which is where real winter tires help.
Originally Posted by dbias
i've experienced wildly different results btwn varied types of vehicles.
Nissan Pulsar FWD with manual transmission with all season tires would go anywhere in the snow. Drove to work one morning after an 18 inch overnight snow fall and literally pushed snow that came up on the hood in some drift areas.
F350 4x4 single rear wheel with all season tires as expected would go anywhere in the snow. Went weaving through several 4x4 Duallys on a really snowy and icy road. I suspect the dually tires didnt help them as opposed to the single tire i had in the back.
Mustang GT Manual trans RWD of course would only go in the snow if i went to the grocery store and filled the hatch area full of 40lb water softener bags then it was not quite as scary, weight over the driving wheels definitely helped.... kept the receipt and returned all the salt in the spring. ...‚
Audi A4 Quattro with DSG and all season tires.Haven't had any problems as expected. Nice thing about the Quattro system is if it is really bad out the Quattro system will keep all wheels spinning at the same time instead of the front tires spin, rear tires spin that some AWD systems do, (cough cough looking at you VW Haldex and others lol). By having all wheels spinning at the same time, all the time, it helps with traction, momentum, and predictability with steering inputs. The Quattro pulls so well there is a good danger in underestimating stopping conditions because as important as getting going is it is more important to be able to stop, which is where real winter tires help.
2WD duallys need massive weight in back to be anything other than useless in snow. My F-450 does OK, but it is around 12-13K & has a rear Eaton locker-it can do anything the 4X4s in the household can do in snow. Unless you have studded snows, weight over the drive axle is paramount in bad winter weather.
i've experienced wildly different results btwn varied types of vehicles.
Nissan Pulsar FWD with manual transmission with all season tires would go anywhere in the snow. Drove to work one morning after an 18 inch overnight snow fall and literally pushed snow that came up on the hood in some drift areas.
F350 4x4 single rear wheel with all season tires as expected would go anywhere in the snow. Went weaving through several 4x4 Duallys on a really snowy and icy road. I suspect the dually tires didnt help them as opposed to the single tire i had in the back.
Mustang GT Manual trans RWD of course would only go in the snow if i went to the grocery store and filled the hatch area full of 40lb water softener bags then it was not quite as scary, weight over the driving wheels definitely helped.... kept the receipt and returned all the salt in the spring. ...‚
Audi A4 Quattro with DSG and all season tires.Haven't had any problems as expected. Nice thing about the Quattro system is if it is really bad out the Quattro system will keep all wheels spinning at the same time instead of the front tires spin, rear tires spin that some AWD systems do, (cough cough looking at you VW Haldex and others lol). By having all wheels spinning at the same time, all the time, it helps with traction, momentum, and predictability with steering inputs. The Quattro pulls so well there is a good danger in underestimating stopping conditions because as important as getting going is it is more important to be able to stop, which is where real winter tires help.
2WD duallys need massive weight in back to be anything other than useless in snow. My F-450 does OK, but it is around 12-13K & has a rear Eaton locker-it can do anything the 4X4s in the household can do in snow. Unless you have studded snows, weight over the drive axle is paramount in bad winter weather.
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