Full Synthetic oil

[ekpolk]

Originally Posted by OilUzer
I was checking out some oils and read this on amazon:

"Castrol 06244 EDGE A3/B4 0w30 Advanced Full Synthetic Motor Oil"
...
Full Synthetic Oil
This oil is a full synthetic oil, meaning crude oil is not used in making it."

1. The terms "synthetic" and "full synthetic" are now totally without meaning in the context of motor oils. They are absolutely NOTHING except advertising drivel. There are ways to make informed conclusions about the make-up of an oil and its "quality" (however you choose to define that), but in no case does relying upon the presence or absence of the term "synthetic" help you decide whether an oil is good or bad, appropriate or not appropriate, etc.

2. That Amazon seller's choice of words reveals that he or she probably knows little about oil, except for how to regurgitate the meaningless marketing drivel someone else regurgitated at them. I don't know what that person does for a living, but I feel comfortable ruling out being a chemical engineer working for Castrol. . . There ARE ways to determine whether that oil meets your needs -- whether or not a seller called it "full synthetic" is NOT one of them.

Originally Posted by OilUzer
Q:
can any engine oil be made with no crude oil? I thought that was not possible including even gtl.

Well there are the plant-based motor oils, but (and I'm just guessing here) I strongly suspect that the couple of blenders who actually sell this stuff to the public probably include some "traditional" oils in the product too.

Also, and I'll defer to anyone who's a petroleum or chemical engineer as to the definitions to be used here, but remember, virtually all the substances used to make motor oil can be traced back to a dirty hole drilled into the ground (or perhaps the seabed). Whether it came up the well still mixed into the actual "crude oil" or whether it came up in gas form, it came from the same place -- the bowels of the earth.

 

[RDY4WAR]

When we refer to an oil being polar, are we referring to an attraction and clinging to metal or water solubility?

 

[y_p_w]

Originally Posted by ekpolk
Also, and I'll defer to anyone who's a petroleum or chemical engineer as to the definitions to be used here, but remember, virtually all the substances used to make motor oil can be traced back to a dirty hole drilled into the ground (or perhaps the seabed). Whether it came up the well still mixed into the actual "crude oil" or whether it came up in gas form, it came from the same place -- the bowels of the earth.

A friend of mine was working on microbes (mostly yeast) that were supposed to convert organic plant materials (primarily sugarcane including I believe the cellulosic parts) into hydrocarbon fuels. Conversion of sucrose to ethanol is easy, but turning it into biodiesel was apparently pretty difficult. I suppose with enough bioengineering it could be used for lubricant oils, although I'm not sure it would be cost effective. They were apparently having enough difficulty making biodiesel cheap enough. It think they managed to make some demonstration jet fuel. The company itself has shifted to mostly bioengineering other substances for yeast to convert from sugars.

 

[y_p_w]

Originally Posted by RDY4WAR
When we refer to an oil being polar, are we referring to an attraction and clinging to metal or water solubility?

It's been a while since HS chemistry, but what the heck.....

It's really a molecular property. Water is a dipole, where the positive charge shifts towards the hydrogen atoms, and the negative charge shifts towards the oxygen atom. Since each end has a charge, it can form loose bonds with ions and other polar molecules.

This was what I remember from HS chem. Water tends to dissolve ionic compounds (like NaCl) because the polar ends have an affinity for charged ions. Several water molecules will attach to each ion.

Quote
https://www.wiley.com/college/boyer/0470003790/reviews/pH/ph_water.htm
Water is a good solvent

The polar nature of water, with its partial positive and partial negative dipole, allows it to dissolve charged molecules (ions) easily. Water is thus an excellent solvent for charged compounds. The positive side of water surrounds negatively charged molecules, and the negatively charged side of water surrounds positively charged molecules.

In this way, water makes "solvation shells" around ions. Water can also readily dissolve other polar molecules, even if they are not positively or negatively charged. The solvent properties of water allow for dissolved metals and buffering systems that are very important for the workhorses of life, enzymes. However, the saying "oil and water don't mix" is true--water cannot dissolve oil. This is because oily substances are non-polar. Non-polar substances (which lack dipoles) are also called hydrophobic (water fearing). Hydrophobic substances gather together to exclude water as best they can. This is why you see oil droplets in water. This is also important for the stability and structure of enzymes.


I guess PAO doesn't really have that kind of affinity for various additives, so they'll probably fall out of suspension. That was usually why esters (which are highly polar) are typically added to PAO.

 

[RDY4WAR]

Ok. That's what I figured. Thanks for clarifying.

 

[geeman789]

I believe in Europe the term synthetic is much more restrictive ... no highly refined mineral oil allowed.


Didn't Castrol and Mobil go to court years back ... with Castrol winning the right to call highly refined mineral oil SYNTHETIC ? I believe that court case forever changed the whole motor oil marketing landscape ...

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted by geeman789
I believe in Europe the term synthetic is much more restrictive ... no highly refined mineral oil allowed.


That's only in Germany.


Originally Posted by geeman789
Didn't Castrol and Mobil go to court years back ... with Castrol winning the right to call highly refined mineral oil SYNTHETIC ? I believe that court case forever changed the whole motor oil marketing landscape ...


It was a BBB dispute, and the result was that HC Group III performance was sufficiently close to that of traditional synthetic base stocks that it could be called "synthetic".