Rather than debating it, I'll put a 9 dollar fuel filter into my cars every few years, just so that I don't have to worry about a car not starting when I need it most. (Probably on a sunday night or holiday when everything is closed)
Fuel Filters. Are they really necessary?
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One of the "don't do's" I've always remembered is 'never fill up while the delivery truck is there." You have 5,000 - 10,000 gallons being dumped into a tank that may have accumulated some dirt over the last 10 or 20 years and the delivery is now stirring all that up.
Of course, you have no idea if the truck just left 5 minutes ago.
When engines had carburetors, we needed fuel filters. Now with FI, they figure one is good for the life of the car. I don't get it.
Of course, you have no idea if the truck just left 5 minutes ago.
When engines had carburetors, we needed fuel filters. Now with FI, they figure one is good for the life of the car. I don't get it.
Originally Posted By: PhillyJoe
When engines had carburetors, we needed fuel filters. Now with FI, they figure one is good for the life of the car. I don't get it.
Fuel filters are even MORE necessary with EFI. But with EFI they can make a filter last a lot longer. How?
Well, EFI is regulated to at 40-80 PSI and the pumps can produce over 100 PSI. Carburetors operate at 3-8 PSI, and the pumps can produce... 3-8 PSI. As a filter clogs in a carbureted car, if it even causes a 1 PSI drop it can starve the engine for fuel. In an EFI car, the filter can clog to the point that it causes a 10, 15, or even 20 PSI drop and the fuel pump can still deliver enough pressure to the regulator so that the engine never notices the clogged filter. So you can run a filter a lot longer and get it a lot more clogged in an EFI car. Of course it makes the fuel pump work a lot harder, but the pump can do it... for a time.
Now if you also make the filter 30% larger than the filter in a carbureted car, its clear that you can (probably) make it last WAY beyond the warranty period- at which point the carmaker could care less if you ever change it again. Even more to the point, the PUMP will probably fail before the filter plugs solid (even if its due to pumping against a badly clogged filter) and they know you'll replace the pump and filter as a unit and you'll never know or care that the filter CAUSED the pump to fail.... :-/ Just another step on our march to being a disposable society.
No fuel filter is really "lifetime" unless you plan on throwing the car away when the fuel filter clogs. Me, I'd rather get dirty and drop the tank and change the filter than buy a new car.
When engines had carburetors, we needed fuel filters. Now with FI, they figure one is good for the life of the car. I don't get it.
Fuel filters are even MORE necessary with EFI. But with EFI they can make a filter last a lot longer. How?
Well, EFI is regulated to at 40-80 PSI and the pumps can produce over 100 PSI. Carburetors operate at 3-8 PSI, and the pumps can produce... 3-8 PSI. As a filter clogs in a carbureted car, if it even causes a 1 PSI drop it can starve the engine for fuel. In an EFI car, the filter can clog to the point that it causes a 10, 15, or even 20 PSI drop and the fuel pump can still deliver enough pressure to the regulator so that the engine never notices the clogged filter. So you can run a filter a lot longer and get it a lot more clogged in an EFI car. Of course it makes the fuel pump work a lot harder, but the pump can do it... for a time.
Now if you also make the filter 30% larger than the filter in a carbureted car, its clear that you can (probably) make it last WAY beyond the warranty period- at which point the carmaker could care less if you ever change it again. Even more to the point, the PUMP will probably fail before the filter plugs solid (even if its due to pumping against a badly clogged filter) and they know you'll replace the pump and filter as a unit and you'll never know or care that the filter CAUSED the pump to fail.... :-/ Just another step on our march to being a disposable society.
No fuel filter is really "lifetime" unless you plan on throwing the car away when the fuel filter clogs. Me, I'd rather get dirty and drop the tank and change the filter than buy a new car.
Let me give you a prime example of why a fuel filter is needed.
My friend owned a gas station for many years. For years he sold unbranded gas. He had to change fuel filters on the pumps 1 to 2 times a week. He switched to ammoco (spelling? Now known as oil spill BP) and once he switched over he only had to change the filters once every other month. Now what does that tell you?
My friend owned a gas station for many years. For years he sold unbranded gas. He had to change fuel filters on the pumps 1 to 2 times a week. He switched to ammoco (spelling? Now known as oil spill BP) and once he switched over he only had to change the filters once every other month. Now what does that tell you?
Originally Posted By: ProStreetCamaro
Let me give you a prime example of why a fuel filter is needed.
My friend owned a gas station for many years. For years he sold unbranded gas. He had to change fuel filters on the pumps 1 to 2 times a week. He switched to ammoco (spelling? Now known as oil spill BP) and once he switched over he only had to change the filters once every other month. Now what does that tell you?
I agree with this. I never buy gas at a dirty, unkept station unless I absolutely have to.
I am glad to pay a nickle more a gallon to fill up at a brand new Mobil or Sunoco station.
Up here we have Delta Sonic, which is the largest carwash in the area. They sell a TON of gas. I've never had a problem with them either.
If they place can afford to keep up the place, they can afford to keep up the pumps, and the tanks.
Let me give you a prime example of why a fuel filter is needed.
My friend owned a gas station for many years. For years he sold unbranded gas. He had to change fuel filters on the pumps 1 to 2 times a week. He switched to ammoco (spelling? Now known as oil spill BP) and once he switched over he only had to change the filters once every other month. Now what does that tell you?
I agree with this. I never buy gas at a dirty, unkept station unless I absolutely have to.
I am glad to pay a nickle more a gallon to fill up at a brand new Mobil or Sunoco station.
Up here we have Delta Sonic, which is the largest carwash in the area. They sell a TON of gas. I've never had a problem with them either.
If they place can afford to keep up the place, they can afford to keep up the pumps, and the tanks.
The filter on my Jeep's carbed 360 ci holds at most 4 oz of of gas. I replaced one that wouldnt allow the Jeep to go 35MPH. The filter for my 2.7L EFI BMW holds a good 20 oz. I replaced the filter when I first sorted out the car. 100K miles later, I replaced that filter. You can blow through a new filter pretty easily in either direction. My cheeks looked like Dizzy Gillesspy pushing this black grit out of it. It wasnt really affecting the EFI much.But I never ran a car 100k miles before, let alone a fuel filter
I agree that if the car has an out of tank filter with a service interval I would change (and have changed) it too. But on cars with an in tank filter with no specified service interval, I never change them.
My Honda Civic I just got rid of had 250,000 miles and didn't have a service interval specified for the fuel filter and I never changed it. I also used the cheapest lowest priced gas too, which I'm sure didn't help. I figured by the time I had a fule related problem with the car it would be close to death and sold anyway, which turned out to be the case.
My Honda Civic I just got rid of had 250,000 miles and didn't have a service interval specified for the fuel filter and I never changed it. I also used the cheapest lowest priced gas too, which I'm sure didn't help. I figured by the time I had a fule related problem with the car it would be close to death and sold anyway, which turned out to be the case.
Since I purchased our 1st vehicle with fuel injection (a used Volvo 145E) I have always replaced the IN LINE fuel filters on all my cars and motorcycles at approximately 2/3rds the recommended interval (i.e., if 30K recommended I do it at 20K).
I have never had to (again!) rebuild a carb (other than when restoring an older vehicle) or have a single fuel injector serviced or replaced...
It is just common sense to me: why run the risk of what can be a major and potentially expen$ive repair when it is usually SO EASY to prevent it?
Cheers!
I have never had to (again!) rebuild a carb (other than when restoring an older vehicle) or have a single fuel injector serviced or replaced...
It is just common sense to me: why run the risk of what can be a major and potentially expen$ive repair when it is usually SO EASY to prevent it?
Cheers!
Agreed, I have had several fuel filters plug up at 100 k + miles in normal driving, however......
Two could not have been prevented by filter changes. our 1979 Fairmont plugged.....the filter was clear full of "anthill sand" and replugged several times in the next couple of weeks with the same stuff. I just removed the filter and dumped out the dirt each week, Must have been a tank of badly contaminated gas.... the problem went away totally after about 3 tanks of gas.
My neighbors Windstar suddenly plugged.... and replugged, then stalled totally. Draining the tank revealed the gas was contaminated with a fine - claylike substance perhaps a gallon of this sludgelike material in the bottom. With a locking gas filler door, garage parking and no known enemies... it seems that he got a tank of horribly contaminated gas. Sadly, enough got through to also require new injectors. I helped drain the tank, I have never seen anything like it and no filter would have ever held it all without plugging.
Two could not have been prevented by filter changes. our 1979 Fairmont plugged.....the filter was clear full of "anthill sand" and replugged several times in the next couple of weeks with the same stuff. I just removed the filter and dumped out the dirt each week, Must have been a tank of badly contaminated gas.... the problem went away totally after about 3 tanks of gas.
My neighbors Windstar suddenly plugged.... and replugged, then stalled totally. Draining the tank revealed the gas was contaminated with a fine - claylike substance perhaps a gallon of this sludgelike material in the bottom. With a locking gas filler door, garage parking and no known enemies... it seems that he got a tank of horribly contaminated gas. Sadly, enough got through to also require new injectors. I helped drain the tank, I have never seen anything like it and no filter would have ever held it all without plugging.
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On many if not most cars, it is relatively easy to install an inline fuel filter to replace or supplement the factory-installed one. And these after-market filters can do a much better job of protecting expensive injection system components.
Even if the gas in the underground tank were pristinely clean, what about the gas pump nozzle? It sits outside 24/7 and becomes contaminated with wind-blown dirt. If you fill up your car 50 times a year, think about how much dirt you're inadvertantly putting into your gas tank from the dirty nozzles
Well I went ahead and started digging on forums for more information about the so called non serviceable fuel filters it Subaru cars. The older Subaru's from 80-2004 used the easy to access engine bay fuel filter. The 2005-current cars have fuel filters that are within the actual gas tank. Here's a few diagrams. I know this is for Subaru only, but perhaps it can also help some of the other people with so called non serviceable fuel filters.
[img:center]http://www.scoobymods.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2580&d=1086023402[/img]
[img:center]http://www.scoobymods.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5918&d=1183599857[/img]
[img:center]http://www.scoobymods.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5920&d=1183599877[/img]
[img:center]http://www.scoobymods.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5921&d=1183599890[/img]
It looks easier than it looks. However, I'm a little nervous about doing it since it's dealing with the actual gas tank which is full of fuel. I guess you could run it to E and then do it.
Oh an this gas pump is located in the rear of the car under one of the seats.
[img:center]http://www.scoobymods.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2580&d=1086023402[/img]
[img:center]http://www.scoobymods.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5918&d=1183599857[/img]
[img:center]http://www.scoobymods.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5920&d=1183599877[/img]
[img:center]http://www.scoobymods.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5921&d=1183599890[/img]
It looks easier than it looks. However, I'm a little nervous about doing it since it's dealing with the actual gas tank which is full of fuel. I guess you could run it to E and then do it.
Oh an this gas pump is located in the rear of the car under one of the seats.
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I used to work at a gas station back in the day. It's well known that water and other contaminants reside at the bottom of the tank. The suck line resides above the bottom of the tank though, I think a foot or so maybe?
Here is the key: DO NOT GET GAS WHILE A TANKER REFILL IS OCCURING OR 30 MINUTES THEREAFTER. It stirs up the contaminents so they circulate above the suck line. We used to close our station after a delivery.
If I see a tanker truck refilling, I ALWAYS split the scene in a hurry.
Here is the key: DO NOT GET GAS WHILE A TANKER REFILL IS OCCURING OR 30 MINUTES THEREAFTER. It stirs up the contaminents so they circulate above the suck line. We used to close our station after a delivery.
If I see a tanker truck refilling, I ALWAYS split the scene in a hurry.
Originally Posted By: lairdwd
I used to work at a gas station back in the day. It's well known that water and other contaminants reside at the bottom of the tank. The suck line resides above the bottom of the tank though, I think a foot or so maybe?
Here is the key: DO NOT GET GAS WHILE A TANKER REFILL IS OCCURING OR 30 MINUTES THEREAFTER. It stirs up the contaminents so they circulate above the suck line. We used to close our station after a delivery.
If I see a tanker truck refilling, I ALWAYS split the scene in a hurry.
Do they ever clean or flush the tanks? What happens to a 30 year old tank?
I used to work at a gas station back in the day. It's well known that water and other contaminants reside at the bottom of the tank. The suck line resides above the bottom of the tank though, I think a foot or so maybe?
Here is the key: DO NOT GET GAS WHILE A TANKER REFILL IS OCCURING OR 30 MINUTES THEREAFTER. It stirs up the contaminents so they circulate above the suck line. We used to close our station after a delivery.
If I see a tanker truck refilling, I ALWAYS split the scene in a hurry.
Do they ever clean or flush the tanks? What happens to a 30 year old tank?
my 05 camry has an in-tank sock strainer before the pump pickup (also int he tank) and a wrap around housing for the filter that sits around the electric pump.
change interval is 45,000 miles, the dealer did it last time. access is through a port int he body work (steel plate tacked onto frame) and then through module sitting int he fuel tank. it is something i could do in future, if i could find the correct sealant which is important because it needs to be able to keep water and fuel fumes out of the cabin.
i've posted photos on there before about it right after the change. mostly black silty powder (wet) in the filter pleats.
something worht having and worth changing.
change interval is 45,000 miles, the dealer did it last time. access is through a port int he body work (steel plate tacked onto frame) and then through module sitting int he fuel tank. it is something i could do in future, if i could find the correct sealant which is important because it needs to be able to keep water and fuel fumes out of the cabin.
i've posted photos on there before about it right after the change. mostly black silty powder (wet) in the filter pleats.
something worht having and worth changing.
Originally Posted By: tonycarguy
Do they ever clean or flush the tanks? What happens to a 30 year old tank?
Depends.
I have seen an owner use an electric pump mounted on 12' of PCV lowered into a tank to pump out water/garbage. The gas pump pickup is usually 6-8" above the bottom of the tank so you usually let water get to about the 3" mark before you worry about it. There is a paste you apply to the "dipstick" that turns pink in the presence of water to find the actual water level. Some use a "sump truck" to pull the water out, but that is expensive to.
Water accumulates over time in all tanks. In areas with high water tables, you can tell a leaky tank because the water levels increase steadily, vs product leaking out.
Do they ever clean or flush the tanks? What happens to a 30 year old tank?
Depends.
I have seen an owner use an electric pump mounted on 12' of PCV lowered into a tank to pump out water/garbage. The gas pump pickup is usually 6-8" above the bottom of the tank so you usually let water get to about the 3" mark before you worry about it. There is a paste you apply to the "dipstick" that turns pink in the presence of water to find the actual water level. Some use a "sump truck" to pull the water out, but that is expensive to.
Water accumulates over time in all tanks. In areas with high water tables, you can tell a leaky tank because the water levels increase steadily, vs product leaking out.
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