"Fuel Efficiency Standards Are Dead"

[Mainia]

Cute, but Jeff speaks from personal experience so is well positioned to make his claims.
CA's also remains the fourth largest economy in the world.

I am not deputing that, that they are they are on a down slide with their questionable "extreme choices". When Jeff was describing California, I had to laugh, those are not California descriptive words, I find them way more descriptive of Texas. Hence the glasses.

 

[JeffKeryk]

Well, do you have a masters in comp sci from a top 10 school and your Thesis was on programming AI models?

Or do you have a GED?

My point was that people try to make the GDP of California sound so impressive, but in reality its not particularly impressive compared to population. Even in the Bay area only a small percentage of people work in the tech sector. Most have regular ho-hum jobs like most other places.

So the 4th (or 5th) largest economy, by itself, is not that impressive? What's it take?
Yes, we are a very populous state, almost 40M or 12% of the nation. There's a reason for it. We are geographically large and diverse. Like much of America, population is concentrated in a few large areas, LA and Bay Areas.

Our largest industries include technology, agriculture, film and television, travel and tourism, and the service sector. California's economy is highly diversified, with significant contributions from manufacturing, healthcare, and construction as well.

In Silicon Valley, about 30% of the workforce works directly in tech. Of course tech drives incredible economic opportunity in the area. Heck, the Valley even has the most productive automotive plant in the nation.

There is so much more to the Golden State.

 

[ripcord]

So the 4th (or 5th) largest economy, by itself, is not that impressive? What's it take?
Yes, we are a very populous state, almost 40M or 12% of the nation. There's a reason for it. We are geographically large and diverse. Like much of America, population is concentrated in a few large areas, LA and Bay Areas.

Our largest industries include technology, agriculture, film and television, travel and tourism, and the service sector. California's economy is highly diversified, with significant contributions from manufacturing, healthcare, and construction as well.

In Silicon Valley, about 30% of the workforce works directly in tech. Of course tech drives incredible economic opportunity in the area. Heck, the Valley even has the most productive automotive plant in the nation.

There is so much more to the Golden State.

California is the goose that lays golden eggs. A veritable miracle of modern progress... but it sure feels like the ignorant countryman (assemblyman?) is ever more itching to wield his hatchet.

 

[JeffKeryk]

I am not deputing that, that they are they are on a down slide with their questionable "extreme choices". When Jeff was describing California, I had to laugh, those are not California descriptive words, I find them way more descriptive of Texas. Hence the glasses.

Feel free to laugh, but you are laughing at capitalism, entrepreneurism, hard work and success. That's the numbers.

 

[SC Maintenance]

So the 4th (or 5th) largest economy, by itself, is not that impressive? What's it take?

If you want to get into this - even though it has no relevance to the topic. I'll start with California does not even have the highest GDP per capita, and CA GDP is large primarily due to population. If a building in LA owned by developers in FL for tax purposes is leased to a firm based in CA, the "GDP" scores to CA but the profits flow to FL. So GDP is a useful tool to compare countries economies to each other, but not so much amongst states because anyone in any state can do business in any other state, in the same currency. So even if it were possible to track - which it isn't - its not a useful metric.

Its definitely not a useful metric defining emission standards. A more relevant metric might be the number of ICE vehicles sold in California. Turns out its about 10% of the total US market, and declining much more quickly than the rest. So I can see 3 scenarios.

1) We continue down this path where CARB leads but ultimately controls the EPA. This will force everyone into EV's and since we don't have the infrastructure, the United States will be lucky to retain the 4th largest economy on earth as a whole. Invest Long rickshaws in this regime.

2) The Supreme court rules that the EPA is in charge of emissions. I can see good legal arguments on both sides of this so we will have to wait and see.

3) Is my most likely scenario is that OEM's start selling non CARB vehicles in non CARB states, like they did in the 70's.

The thing not discussed about this new rule is that by making the fines zero, no state can sue the EPA based on the Chevron ruling, because if no one has been fined, no one has standing. Its a pretty genius legal trick when you think about it.

 

[supton]

The thing not discussed about this new rule is that by making the fines zero, no state can sue the EPA based on the Chevron ruling, because if no one has been fined, no one has standing. Its a pretty genius legal trick when you think about it.

That is an interesting thought. I had assumed that the fines went to zero as it was the least amount of work--repealing a bill is probably harder, but changing a number(s) in a small spot is probably easier?

So if an OEM keeps getting dinged, but it's $0 fines... nothing happens, right? Free to violate (at least until administrations change, but then, old sins can't be fined, I think).

Could some OEM's be offended at a zero dollar fine? Like, monetary damage aside, just being guilty of something is still wrong, or a slight, or similar.

 

[SC Maintenance]

That is an interesting thought. I had assumed that the fines went to zero as it was the least amount of work--repealing a bill is probably harder, but changing a number(s) in a small spot is probably easier?

So if an OEM keeps getting dinged, but it's $0 fines... nothing happens, right? Free to violate (at least until administrations change, but then, old sins can't be fined, I think).

Could some OEM's be offended at a zero dollar fine? Like, monetary damage aside, just being guilty of something is still wrong, or a slight, or similar.

Its a bit more complex. If your a nerd like me you may wish to look up the recent reversal by the court of the Chevron ruling. https://www.scotusblog.com/2024/06/...chevron-curtailing-power-of-federal-agencies/

The jest was a bunch of states sued the EPA, saying while congress had the right to regulate electricity production emissions, the EPA did not - congress can not delegate the authority. The Supreme Court agreed.

So the next logical step would be for states to sue against other delegated rules they don't like, such as CAFE. However if no fines have been issued, then no one has been harmed. Hence no one can sue. If they are sued the justice department is expected to defend the federal government from the suit. My guess is they current one has no interest in doing so. So by making the fine zero they have eliminated this possibility. As you mention, for now.

As for a auto OEM suing the government for something of this magnitude, I doubt they would have any standing either way. But I am not a lawyer so thats just a guess.

 

[trd1zz]

It's a factor, which I agreed on, but there are other factors, which I listed.

I think you are making far too much of the difference:
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The Tundra sells 1/7th the volume yet still commands close to the same price as the F-150.


Weird...
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The SRT will take the 4Runner behind the woodshed and it won't be walking straight for 6 weeks. It also might need diapers going forward.

Now you're going backwards and comparing a niche top trim SRT (with a V8 upgrade) to a Limited 4R (not even the TRD Pro - which just demonstrates your lack of familiarity with the Toyota lineup). Regardless, it's irrelevant, you are missing the forest for the trees.

Toyota & Lexus residual / resale values for commonly produced vehicles are very clearly at the top of all auto manufacturers - and the primary reason for that is Toyota's reliability advantage.

See KBB, JD Power, Car Edge, etc, etc, etc. where all this is very clearly spelled out by numerous organizations. You can continue to argue otherwise all you want by posting random classified ads for niche vehicles - but no one is listening.

 

[kschachn]

See KBB, JD Power, Car Edge, etc, etc, etc. where all this is very clearly spelled out by numerous organizations. You can continue to argue otherwise all you want by posting random classified ads for niche vehicles - but no one is listening.

Are they listening to you?

 

[trd1zz]

Are they listening to you?

Nope, nor the numerous organizations who have analyzed resale values for auto manufacturers and published the results. Must be fake news I guess.

 

[OVERKILL]

Now you're going backwards and comparing a niche top trim SRT (with a V8 upgrade) to a Limited 4R (not even the TRD Pro - which just demonstrates your lack of familiarity with the Toyota lineup). Regardless, it's irrelevant, you are missing the forest for the trees.

Toyota & Lexus residual / resale values for commonly produced vehicles are very clearly at the top of all auto manufacturers - and the primary reason for that is Toyota's reliability advantage.

See KBB, JD Power, Car Edge, etc, etc, etc. where all this is very clearly spelled out by numerous organizations. You can continue to argue otherwise all you want by posting random classified ads for niche vehicles - but no one is listening.

I'm having some fun at your expense, since I made my point about 4 posts back about other factors that can and do impact resale, which you don't want to acknowledge since you've made Toyota a part of your identity (looking at your username).

I'm not sure what audience it is that you think you have the ear of, but I clearly have yours.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Why does the U.S always seem to be one step behind the rest of 1st world countries? We should be leading not trailing.

What do you mean?