"Fuel Efficiency Standards Are Dead"

[meep]

I have crawled all over our 2019 Rav4, my first Toyota. I haven't found anything compelling enough to make me believe its particularly better than any other car I have owned. I think the Toyota myth is a bit self fulfilling. People worried about longevity buy Toyota's due to reputation, then ensure they are "over maintained", often at a dealer.

Many BMW types drive it like they stole it.

H/K figure its got 100K warranty - what do I care.

Thats my take on a lot of this. Most of the things that fail on any car are components made by some other company.

Still the resale residual is real. Perception is the driver of price.

I’ll share a little. I was close with a guy who had the bmw disease. He just loved them. Became quite an adept diy bmw mechanic, while working IT. We are talking about personal 2 post lift kinda passion here. I helped him pull his first cylinder head, years ago. He had to sell them to justify getting the next one. New basket case bimmer every 18 months, going through two at a time so a 9 month cycle. He became excellent at resurrecting many an overheated bimmer. And then he got REALLY good from there. Electronics, drivelines, suspension and whatnot.

The disease changed. Land Cruisers became where it’s AT. FJ 40, FJ 60, FJ 80, FJ 20 … now he operates as a professional LC shop, known in this quadrant of the country. To underline this, he is under supplier contracts for warranty work…

One of the things we noticed back when we were in touch (we’ve lost touch) was that Toyota engines were HEAVY. you could pull a spent, non-running, half million mile Toyota motor and there was no ridge ream, and the cylinder mic’d incredibly close to spec, if not in spec. Rubber would be shot and oil coming out of every seal, but the metal was solid. Why? Toyota paid attention when America helped Japan rebuild, and focused on a quality of steel that was incredibly dense and low on porosity. For that reason, while they looked the same as anyone else’s to the eye, it simply was not the same.

May they never forget that … while I don’t find them anywhere near as exciting, and some of their design choices leave me scratching my head, we now own 2. Yes, one feels like an appliance and one has new-tech teething issues - we’ll see, but the lesson holds. Theres stuff they do that isnt commonly understood.

 

[burbguy82]

No.
Americans can’t build competive cars now. Europeans and Asian manufacturers will continue to innovate and America will continue to produce outdated machinery.

Outdated does not mean obsolete. I have a 91 YJ jeep, that will likely outlast every wrangler built in the last 10 years.

Outdated, IMO is really not a thing. An old car can serve a purpose, comfortably......the issue is everyone always wants the next "best thing".....in the case of recent years, new does not = good.

 

[burbguy82]

I was under the impression that in terms of longevity, there was something about V8s as opposed to 6s, 10s, of V12s that made them a better choice...........power per pound. I think it was an engineering thing. As witness, the Abominations of Ford and Dodge v10s of the 90s and 2000s=mostly all dead.

 

[JeffKeryk]

Resale value is primarily driven by reliability. Nobody is talking about niche, enthusiast vehicles.

Beyond the Sequoia, both the Tundra & Tacoma resales are stronger than domestic competitors. Let's not even bring up the 4Runner.

Over time, historically, yes. The numbers are undeniable. Has Toyota slipped some? Maybe; dunno for sure. The new Tundra has had more than it's share of trouble. TBT I am not that familiar with their current vehicles beyond wifey's RX.
I was a Honda/Toyota buyer for reliability and overall ease of ownership.

A year or so ago I got my grandniece a Mazda 3 to replace her newer Corolla strippie that some Bozo ran into. The 3 is an incredible car in comparison. I guess we will find out how it holds up.

For ease of ownership, I am no longer buying ICE. Just my experience, each to his/her own. Wait; gotta go put blue warsher fluid in the Model 3.... Just kidding.

 

[fdcg27]

Resale value is primarily driven by reliability. Nobody is talking about niche, enthusiast vehicles.

Beyond the Sequoia, both the Tundra & Tacoma resales are stronger than domestic competitors. Let's not even bring up the 4Runner.

That Toyotas somehow have superior resale as compared to their Japanese brand competitors is an old and largely discredited meme.
That Toyotas somehow have superior reliability is yet another discredited meme.
Finally, none of us here have access to either large fleet databases or manufacturer's warranty data, so we have no more than personal surmise and internet postings of dubious validity upon which to base any opinion as to what's most reliable.

 

[Mainia]

Well, you are wrong. Regardless, CA is the largest non-nation economy in the world, by far, currently between Germany and Japan. There is a reson for it. California's economy is largely driven by private businesses and free markets, making it a powerful capitalist system. That enables entrepreneurial business opportunities fueled by a strong system of public education.

Opportunity abounds; I am a beneficiary of our thriving, and hungry, economy.

https://blogger.googleusercontent.c...C5ds7OIvPNjtzPZdNzs7n8kV-Rofg/s1600/rose.jpeg

 

[SC Maintenance]

I was under the impression that in terms of longevity, there was something about V8s as opposed to 6s, 10s, of V12s that made them a better choice...........power per pound. I think it was an engineering thing. As witness, the Abominations of Ford and Dodge v10s of the 90s and 2000s=mostly all dead.

A V engine is not inherently more reliable.

V8's used to be reliable comparatively, but even years ago inline 6's were even more reliable generally. They went the way of the dodo and you were left with Turbo vs V8, and while turbo'd engines are not inherently unreliable either, it seemed many implementations of them were in fact not reliable.

The problem with attempting to measure longevity is of course, by the time you figure that out, whatever was the best is long since out of production.

 

[fdcg27]

https://blogger.googleusercontent.c...C5ds7OIvPNjtzPZdNzs7n8kV-Rofg/s1600/rose.jpeg

Cute, but Jeff speaks from personal experience so is well positioned to make his claims.
CA's also remains the fourth largest economy in the world.

 

[SC Maintenance]

Cute, but Jeff speaks from personal experience so is well positioned to make his claims.
CA's also remains the fourth largest economy in the world.

I'll file this into the "never trust data you have not manipulated yourself"

While they may have the highest GDP, they do not have the highest per capita GDP - I think there 3rd or 4th. There just a very populous state.

In fact SD has almost the same per capita GDP as CA. Not many people think of SD as rich, but due to oil they are now.

Also, all GDP is an estimate, and much of the California GDP is not from the tech sector like they would want you to believe, but from Finance and Real estate - which is the case for a lot of states - most actually I think.

I think we have had this debate on this forum before. Its more or less a meaningless debate.

The fact that California has the highest fuel prices of almost any State is pushing them in a direction which may not be best for other states when it comes to CAFE type laws.

 

[OVERKILL]

Resale value is primarily driven by reliability. Nobody is talking about niche, enthusiast vehicles.

Resale value is driven by a variety of factors, as I've already outlined.

Beyond the Sequoia, both the Tundra & Tacoma resales are stronger than domestic competitors. Let's not even bring up the 4Runner.

Tundra sells, what, 160,000 units per year while Ford alone sells 7x that figure of F-150? And yet F-150 still has strong resale. Bring up 4Runner, I'll bring up Wrangler again, are we doing the e-peen dance?

 

[DirectRejection]

I have a lifetime of playing the game of finding balance between efficiency, durability and safety.

Four million miles of subcontractor delivery driving in the San Francisco Bay Area, has had me make a variety of decision on vehicles, THE tool for my job.

I have used a 1980 Rabbit Diesel PU w/camper shell.There was the 2000 Silverado. Two Tacomas. Two PriusC's. etc. etc.the gammit.

I spend ~$800/month on fuel these days. I had a car wreck that was miraculously not fatal. There is a lot to contemplate.

Today at the self serve car wash I met a man, owner of a small construction business. He is VERY happy with his 2024 Silverado 4 cylinder. Torque. MPGs. Sharp looking truck. The wheels were fire. Hmmm.

I really like the idea of market forces leading to innovation. The direction is always "to be determined".

So here we go. Back to pretty good mpg and the relatively simply and long lasting...I think.

Evolve or go extinct.

 

[fdcg27]

I'll file this into the "never trust data you have not manipulated yourself"

While they may have the highest GDP, they do not have the highest per capita GDP - I think there 3rd or 4th. There just a very populous state.

In fact SD has almost the same per capita GDP as CA. Not many people think of SD as rich, but due to oil they are now.

Also, all GDP is an estimate, and much of the California GDP is not from the tech sector like they would want you to believe, but from Finance and Real estate - which is the case for a lot of states - most actually I think.

I think we have had this debate on this forum before. Its more or less a meaningless debate.

The fact that California has the highest fuel prices of almost any State is pushing them in a direction which may not be best for other states when it comes to CAFE type laws.

So I'm a loser and want to make a pile.
Where should I go?
I can go to the Bay Area, take advantage of nearly free higher education and end up in an air conditioned office before a keyboard and a couple of screens or I can go to SD and work on a rig crew and take physical risks to go along with the strain and discomfort.
What should I do?

 

[Jackson_Slugger]

I think testosterone levels will soar.

And guys can again compensate for their "inadequacies"....

 

[IveBeenRued]

How on earth did this thread devolve into a Toyota VS everything else debate? Disregard, back on topic.

I personally think that the The Big Three will shift strongly towards gas guzzlers only to get bitten the next time gas goes over $4/gallon. I think the Korean and Japanese brands will continue to refine their fuel efficient drivetrains and will ultimately come out ahead.

That said, if a pickup truck becomes available with a simple V8 and reliable transmission becomes available in the near future, I will be pulling the trigger.

 

[Vercingetorix]

In fact SD has almost the same per capita GDP as CA. Not many people think of SD as rich, but due to oil they are now.

And that is the problem using GDP. The people of SD aren’t really any more wealthy, but the oil company execs in TX sure are.

 

[supton]

How on earth did this thread devolve into a Toyota VS everything else debate?

Because BITOG?

if a pickup truck becomes available with a simple V8 and reliable transmission becomes available in the near future

What's reliable? I mean, some are happy with 150k, others complain if something breaks after 350k. And some could break an anvil with nothing more than a rubber mallet.

And this has to do with CAFE... somehow... maybe not.

 

[DirectRejection]

How on earth did this thread devolve into a Toyota VS everything else debate? Disregard, back on topic.

I personally think that the The Big Three will shift strongly towards gas guzzlers only to get bitten the next time gas goes over $4/gallon. I think the Korean and Japanese brands will continue to refine their fuel efficient drivetrains and will ultimately come out ahead.

That said, if a pickup truck becomes available with a simple V8 and reliable transmission becomes available in the near future, I will be pulling the trigger.

Dodge Ram Hurticane looks interesting.

Maverick Hybrid.

Maybe a Stout Hybrid.

Gotta keep looking.

 

[SC Maintenance]

So I'm a loser and want to make a pile.
Where should I go?
I can go to the Bay Area, take advantage of nearly free higher education and end up in an air conditioned office before a keyboard and a couple of screens or I can go to SD and work on a rig crew and take physical risks to go along with the strain and discomfort.
What should I do?

Well, do you have a masters in comp sci from a top 10 school and your Thesis was on programming AI models?

Or do you have a GED?

My point was that people try to make the GDP of California sound so impressive, but in reality its not particularly impressive compared to population. Even in the Bay area only a small percentage of people work in the tech sector. Most have regular ho-hum jobs like most other places.

 

[trd1zz]

That Toyotas somehow have superior resale as compared to their Japanese brand competitors is an old and largely discredited meme.
That Toyotas somehow have superior reliability is yet another discredited meme.
Finally, none of us here have access to either large fleet databases or manufacturer's warranty data, so we have no more than personal surmise and internet postings of dubious validity upon which to base any opinion as to what's most reliable.

We have access to the used vehicle market.

In 2025, why does a 20 year old Corolla sell for more money than an equivalent 20 year old BMW 5 series? Even though when new the BMW MSRP'd over 3x more?

Resale value is driven by a variety of factors, as I've already outlined.

Tundra sells, what, 160,000 units per year while Ford alone sells 7x that figure of F-150? And yet F-150 still has strong resale. Bring up 4Runner, I'll bring up Wrangler again, are we doing the e-peen dance?

As I've outlined, the primary factor of resale value is reliability, and all that entails: cost, frequency, ease of repair and maintenance / longevity / durability.

Tundra resale is higher than an F-150. The higher resale value has nothing to do with the volume of Tundra sales and everything to do with the reliability advantage.

Over time, historically, yes. The numbers are undeniable.

Yup. Undeniable. Toyota's resale advantage over all other manufacturers is quite clear. Bizarre to think otherwise.

 

[OVERKILL]

As I've outlined, the primary factor of resale value is reliability, and all that entails: cost / frequency / ease of repair / maintenance / longevity / durability.

It's a factor, which I agreed on, but there are other factors, which I listed.

Tundra resale is higher than an F-150. The higher resale value has nothing to do with the volume of Tundra sales and everything to do with the reliability advantage.

I think you are making far too much of the difference:

The Tundra sells 1/7th the volume yet still commands close to the same price as the F-150.

Yup. Undeniable. Toyota's resale advantage over all other manufacturers is quite clear. Bizarre to think otherwise.

Weird...

The SRT will take the 4Runner behind the woodshed and it won't be walking straight for 6 weeks. It also might need diapers going forward.