"Fuel Efficiency Standards Are Dead"

Here's a nice IMF site that allows you to generate reports on various measures of economic performance over years as well as by country and region:

https://www.imf.org/external/datamapper/NGDPDPC@WEO/UVK/EURO/EU

Even in 2010, the US had about 30% higher GDP per capita as compared to the EU.
Today, US per capita GDP is around double that of the EU.
I have to say that this surprised me since I didn't expect the gap to be so great.
Yes good point. I was referencing national GDP but your point is even more startling, and relevant.

There is the old quote from Margaret Thacher: problem with socialism is eventually you run out of other people’s money.
 
You need to be a little bit careful on this calculation, simply because its in USD's so its calculating the changes in currency as well as the change in GDP. A house in Germany doesn't go up 20% in euro simply because the Euro is down 20% in dollar terms from a year ago. However some things do, like energy.

Also in the USA a lot of the GDP is from the Wall Street financial sector - so it skews the per capita part, but very few working people benefit from it at all. The big Wall Street banks have taken over global banking pretty much at this point - side benny of being able to borrow at zero from the fed. It used to be more spread around.

My only point is its not quite as simple as just comparing GDP per capita in dollar terms. I do agree that productivity in most countries has lagged the USA over the last decade.
I understand your point but these profitability of Wall Street banks filters directly into the portfolio of every American with a 401k or employer funded retirement account they invests in the S&P or other broad indices that pick up the financial sector. Same with big technology and the other areas where the U.S. has a large advantage.

Anecdotally, if you compare how the average American lives, compared to the average European, and I have spent a great deal of time over there in the last 20 years, it only becomes more self evident.
 
There is the old quote from Margaret Thacher: problem with socialism is eventually you run out of other people’s money.
That cuts both ways, applying equally to our country as well as the EU although in different ways.
 
I understand your point but these profitability of Wall Street banks filters directly into the portfolio of every American with a 401k or employer funded retirement account they invests
Thats not true, I am talking about financial services sector (part of GDP - like 20% - financing, insurance, etc) not capital appreciation of publicly traded companies (not part of GDP or productivity). So your mixing metaphors.

Yes, like I said I agreed that our productivity has become higher than most places, but the numbers do not tell the story. There is as big a difference as the average German vs say a person in Moldova, just like someone living on the upper east side likely has a better life than someone in Gary IN. Just looking at GDP per person without looking at the distribution is meaningless.

Workforce participation rate in Germany is something like 80%, vs in the USA if we get to 63% were ecstatic. So while our per capita GDP is much higher, the distribution is much more concentrated as well.
 
It is unlikely we will get more Euro models. The markets are different. Small wagons sell there because the higher price of fuel and typically less homeownership -
less places to store and park bigger vehicles. I always get a kick out of seeing tow hitches on a lot of small to medium wagons. In America you would just buy the bigger car / SUV.

Europe needs to figure out how to get their economy moving again. Consumers are not as prosperous there as a result. Jamie Dimon of Chase gave a speech covered in the business news pointing out that 15 years ago EU economic output and U.S. economic output were comparable. Today the U.S. is 40 percent bigger and the EU does not have nearly the number of innovative companies as the U.S. Their companies that go public need to access U.S. markets because the ones there simply aren’t deep enough. I think this trickles down to the consumer in terms of ability to have nicer things, at least that is my opinion based on the data I see.
True, the Economist had that data recently.
However, the end result is what matters. The EU has a higher quality of life, higher life expectancy, etc. You are looking at this from an American perspective, where there is a lot of talk about productivity, but at what cost?
The average European throughout history was envious of the American size: the size of the house, car, etc. But then, they also have a lot of comparative advantages as average Americans always liked their urban lifestyle, public transportation system, quality of roads and infrastructure, etc.
There is no doubt that making money in the US is much easier than making money in the EU. However, the EU is a more egalitarian society. So, different priorities. There is a saying among European immigrants in the US: "work young in the US, grow old in Europe."
 
I understand your point but these profitability of Wall Street banks filters directly into the portfolio of every American with a 401k or employer funded retirement account they invests in the S&P or other broad indices that pick up the financial sector. Same with big technology and the other areas where the U.S. has a large advantage.

Anecdotally, if you compare how the average American lives, compared to the average European, and I have spent a great deal of time over there in the last 20 years, it only becomes more self evident.
Yeah, I am not sure we want to have that conversation. Since you have been there, next time you go, ask them if they know what personal bankruptcy is.
 
I don't see a hog wild regress; I predict caution because the pendulum swings. Bet she is stuck to the right for a bit.
It's "Party Time" for a while, then ...
 
(kind of kidding of course) What are these American "Cars" you speak of? All I see are Trucks, SUV's and CUV's. Every third vehicle is an F150 around here. One would have to look long and hard to find a Corolla or Civic in my neighborhood.

In reality, the 480HP 5.0 Mustang still exists, and is an absolutely wonderful vehicle to solo 'road-trip' in. It does not fall short of in capability, comfort, or mechanical technology. There are few European cars in the $45K price range that can match performance. The BMW M240 (a car I love) might come closest. But it is down 100HP and real-world $10K more expensive.

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In true American fashion - my Buddy just sent his girl off to college in a brand new 5.0 Stang - Why? What he promised for being top of her class …
 
True, the Economist had that data recently.
However, the end result is what matters. The EU has a higher quality of life, higher life expectancy, etc. You are looking at this from an American perspective, where there is a lot of talk about productivity, but at what cost?
The average European throughout history was envious of the American size: the size of the house, car, etc. But then, they also have a lot of comparative advantages as average Americans always liked their urban lifestyle, public transportation system, quality of roads and infrastructure, etc.
There is no doubt that making money in the US is much easier than making money in the EU. However, the EU is a more egalitarian society. So, different priorities. There is a saying among European immigrants in the US: "work young in the US, grow old in Europe."
There is truth in what you are saying insofar wealth does not equal happiness. Moreover there is truth to your idea that life requires balance. That being said, the disparities in GDP and productivity do filter through in terms of things that improve people’s day to day quality of life. And while there is a legitimate issue with excessive financialization in the U.S. economy, our capital markets provide the “fertilizer” for many businesses - so much so that many foreign. Companies seek to access our capital markets to obtain the financing and capital required for growth. It is why the European banks even need the U.S. markets to capitalize themselves. These issues will not improve for Europe as it will now also need to carry more of the share of its own defense. I will leave the discussion there.

As for me, I will happily grow old in United States.
 
There is truth in what you are saying insofar wealth does not equal happiness. Moreover there is truth to your idea that life requires balance. That being said, the disparities in GDP and productivity do filter through in terms of things that improve people’s day to day quality of life. And while there is a legitimate issue with excessive financialization in the U.S. economy, our capital markets provide the “fertilizer” for many businesses - so much so that many foreign. Companies seek to access our capital markets to obtain the financing and capital required for growth. It is why the European banks even need the U.S. markets to capitalize themselves. These issues will not improve for Europe as it will now also need to carry more of the share of its own defense. I will leave the discussion there.

As for me, I will happily grow old in United States.
Do they want to access the US financial system? Sure. Same as American companies want to access the European financial system. Until Brexit, London had more American banks than NYC. Now it is Frankfurt. Where there is money to be made, businesses will try to access it.
Germany is far more productive than the US. Germany has higher worker participation than the US, and it is basically, for all intents and purposes, a socialized country (same as we are, we just like to lie to ourselves). But, I personally do not like these simplistic comparisons as these issues are very complex, and there are thousands of variables that influence economies, especially such complex economies and societies as the US or the EU.

As for you growing old, yeah. There are a lot of people who have exceptional retirements in the US. But we are talking society, not individuals.
 
The average American works 400 hours or 10 weeks more per year than the average German. The average German lives something like 2 years more than the average American. It is better to fade away than burn out when it comes to living life.
 
Do they want to access the US financial system? Sure. Same as American companies want to access the European financial system. Until Brexit, London had more American banks than NYC. Now it is Frankfurt. Where there is money to be made, businesses will try to access it.
Germany is far more productive than the US. Germany has higher worker participation than the US, and it is basically, for all intents and purposes, a socialized country (same as we are, we just like to lie to ourselves). But, I personally do not like these simplistic comparisons as these issues are very complex, and there are thousands of variables that influence economies, especially such complex economies and societies as the US or the EU.

As for you growing old, yeah. There are a lot of people who have exceptional retirements in the US. But we are talking society, not individuals.
They want access to the capital markets. Part of the financial system but a specific part.

Have a good day.
 
I guess it all comes down to how one defines interesting.
To me, a bloated pickup with no real utility or an oversize SUV are merely examples of conspicuous consumption consumption intended mainly to impress others. These are no more than examples of lazy design and engineering. When weight makes no difference, everyone's job gets easier.
A really good small car is much harder to do and is far more entertaining to drive.
As things are now, we won't see a return to the days of many manufacturers exporting all manner of cars to this country. First, many of those manufacturers no longer exist as anything but a badge.
Second, as someone noted above, as long as gas remains cheap and the economy strong, few buyers will have the sense of subtlety to opt for a good small package but will instead go with the herd.
I don’t live to impress others with materialistic spend … I buy and drive what I want - and laugh at the endless assumptions around reliability here …
 
What's unfounded?

The market value for a used vehicle and particularly it's depreciation rate from new tells you most of what you need to know about vehicle durability, reliability, and longevity.

The reliable, simpler and cheaper to maintain vehicles hold their values much better (see Toyota / Lexus).

While the unreliable ones that cost a fortune to fix and repair to keep them on the road depreciate like a stone (Euro-mobiles, etc).

The market has had this figured out for decades. Is this not common knowledge?
 
That is not how companies do business. EPA might not impose penalties, but then there is CARB. The problem with that logic is that CARB has 13 states, and one of them is the 4th largest economy in the world (CA), and another is the 8th largest (NY). So, companies won't design vehicles specifically for CARB states, and then others.

But, let's say hypothetically CARB does not exist. In 2028, another administration might come and impose old, or even stricter, emission standards. Companies want stability more than constant play between tough standards and lax standards. They will just play it safe.
So, no, you won't see the disappearance of Start/Stop, etc.

Now, as for V8, I don't think that is a consequence of the EPA, etc. It is market demand. Honda proved that you can have a V6 that meets all emission standards, while Toyota went with a 2.4-liter turbo for that segment. BMW continues to push the V8, and it doesn't have any issues meeting the US standards, as well as the Euro 7 standards. So, just because it is V8, does not mean you cannot meet strict standards. In the end, CAFE depends on the rest of your lineup.
California has slipped to 6th since you posted your comment. I sure am not betting on California to be one of our highest thriving states. They are doing their best to wreck it.
 
What's unfounded?

The market value for a used vehicle and particularly it's depreciation rate from new tells you most of what you need to know about vehicle durability, reliability, and longevity.

The reliable, simpler and cheaper to maintain vehicles hold their values much better (see Toyota / Lexus).

While the unreliable ones that cost a fortune to fix and repair to keep them on the road depreciate like a stone (Euro-mobiles, etc).

The market has had this figured out for decades. Is this not common knowledge?
You should check out the residuals on US built large SUVs and pickups and then get back to us.
 
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