"Fuel Efficiency Standards Are Dead"

[D60]

Final thought is one of the reasons I really became anti CAFE is because we are long past the point where actual improvements are being made that benefit the customer. What happens now is that the manufacturers arbitrage the rules to get to the standard, and wind up saddling the consumer with features that add almost nothing to the economy of the vehicle, but are often annoying (eg auto stop start) and can be very expensive to fix when they break or cause other problems ( eg Honda VCM, Hemi exhaust headers cracking due to temp imbalances when MDS activates).

This has been my belief, too. We're now building them even less durable IMO. Single cylinders, two cylinders, tiny displacements, GDI.

All in the name of "efficiency" but is it efficient if it's disposable within a few years?

Where's the honest talk about "carbon footprint" (or pick metric buzzwords of choice) for going through three fuel efficient cars in the span that a single, more thirsty vehicle lasts? Of course, no one wants to have that conversation.

And I'm not saying there's a clear winner -- merely that longevity, disposal of dead vehicles and manufacturing of new vehicles must be included to get a real answer.

 

[userfriendly]

This has been my belief, too. We're now building them even less durable IMO. Single cylinders, two cylinders, tiny displacements, GDI.

All in the name of "efficiency" but is it efficient if it's disposable within a few years?

Where's the honest talk about "carbon footprint" (or pick metric buzzwords of choice) for going through three fuel efficient cars in the span that a single, more thirsty vehicle lasts? Of course, no one wants to have that conversation.

And I'm not saying there's a clear winner -- merely that longevity, disposal of dead vehicles and manufacturing of new vehicles must be included to get a real answer.

The short answer is let the consumer decide what is best for their needs, not the government.

 

[OVERKILL]

This has been my belief, too. We're now building them even less durable IMO. Single cylinders, two cylinders, tiny displacements, GDI.

All in the name of "efficiency" but is it efficient if it's disposable within a few years?

Where's the honest talk about "carbon footprint" (or pick metric buzzwords of choice) for going through three fuel efficient cars in the span that a single, more thirsty vehicle lasts? Of course, no one wants to have that conversation.

And I'm not saying there's a clear winner -- merely that longevity, disposal of dead vehicles and manufacturing of new vehicles must be included to get a real answer.

You are lapping at the cusp of the conversation about the consumerism/conservationism paradox. In order for the economy to function as it does, we must continue to perpetuate the current rate of consumption as "good", while this necessarily underscores the issues with long-term durability and quality of the products that exist to serve that ideology. If we improve quality, we undermine consumerism and reduce the rate of consumption, which risks shattering the paradigm of the consumerism scheme.

These are in constant conflict, designing a product that lasts just long enough for people to see it as "good" so they buy another, but not long enough that it reduces the rate of consumption. This is also why there is so much pushback against "Right to Repair".

 

[IveBeenRued]

The price of gas always dictates the overall fuel economy trend in the US. The closer to $2/gallon, the larger the average vehicle purchased is. The closer to $4/gallon, the smaller and more efficient the average car sold becomes. I’ve seen this cycle countless times and a savvy consumer purchases hybrids and EVs when gas is cheap and their pickup trucks and large family SUVs when gas is expensive.

Some could argue that by essentially forcing companies to sell high efficiency small cars at slim margins, it pushed the price of the trucks and SUVs higher because the companies needed to make up for it. Also, we have a few examples of companies releasing defective vehicles for the sake of padding their CAFE. The Ford PowerShift transmissions in the Fiesta and Focus are great examples of this. Known defective even prior to release, but they needed to pad their CAFE figure so the consumer was punished.

 

[wemay]

I find it rich that companies complaining about CAFE penalties, axed their most efficient vehicles (sedans and economy cars). If they had invested more in their development, the excuse of poor sales wouldn't have taken hold.

 

[supton]

I wouldn't mind DI going away, I know not all are bad, but enough were. PFI did just fine by me. And the CVT is just fine in my Corolla, but I wouldn't want it in anything larger.

But I do worry that I'll not be able to find low cost, durable, and comfortable cars in the future. CUV's are the sedan of today it seems; but I find myself wanting a wagon again. Problem is, OEM's like to penalize you if you go too small. I get it, "they don't sell" but one can't buy what isn't sold. I rather liked my Jetta wagon, most would hate the idea of a loaded compact but it remains my favorite & the only vehicle I owned for more than ten years.

Anyhow. What's the odds of another gas price fluctuation in the future?

Also, if they roll back the regs, could we get more Euro cars? I'm sure I'd regret owning one, in some way shape or form, but if emissions & safety regs are rolled back, what's stopping (other than tariffs) the importation, even new, of cars not typically sold here?

 

[edyvw]

I wouldn't mind DI going away, I know not all are bad, but enough were. PFI did just fine by me. And the CVT is just fine in my Corolla, but I wouldn't want it in anything larger.

But I do worry that I'll not be able to find low cost, durable, and comfortable cars in the future. CUV's are the sedan of today it seems; but I find myself wanting a wagon again. Problem is, OEM's like to penalize you if you go too small. I get it, "they don't sell" but one can't buy what isn't sold. I rather liked my Jetta wagon, most would hate the idea of a loaded compact but it remains my favorite & the only vehicle I owned for more than ten years.

Anyhow. What's the odds of another gas price fluctuation in the future?

Also, if they roll back the regs, could we get more Euro cars? I'm sure I'd regret owning one, in some way shape or form, but if emissions & safety regs are rolled back, what's stopping (other than tariffs) the importation, even new, of cars not typically sold here?

Which for example? Safety regulations are not an issue EURONcap in many ways has more stringent demands. Devil is in the details. Europe has some different pedestrian standards than US, than all issues with lights which prevent US customers to have goodies they have elsewhere. Yet, we have to tolerate those idiots with LED bars etc.
bBut, VW cannot bring Seat or Skoda. They already have issues between Audi and VW. Renault? Peugeot? The dealership network is an issue.

 

[supton]

Which for example? Safety regulations are not an issue EURONcap in many ways has more stringent demands. Devil is in the details. Europe has some different pedestrian standards than US, than all issues with lights which prevent US customers to have goodies they have elsewhere. Yet, we have to tolerate those idiots with LED bars etc.
bBut, VW cannot bring Seat or Skoda. They already have issues between Audi and VW. Renault? Peugeot? The dealership network is an issue.

Not sure, just that, have always heard "we don't get the cool cars". Heck nick1994 pointed out to me that they get a Corolla hybrid wagon. Might not be anyone's cup of tea but mine.

But yes, devil's in the details. Question is, what's the tipping point where it becomes possible? Before (possibly still) it's a large chasm of differences. Remove how many and now it might be possible? Think new alliances, partnerships, things that could end badly (VW partnering with Dodge/whoever with the Routan) (ok, never mind, no one wants that again).

 

[SC Maintenance]

OEM's like to penalize you if you go too small.

the CAFE footprint formula is at least part of it. How much gas you can burn is based partially on the footprint - or the track x the wheelbase. The bigger the car - the more CAFE allowance.

The safety mandates are another part.

Lots of companies make small cars for off-shore markets - but the whole CAFE thing and other rules make it hard to import. I don't know what percentage of the problem that is - but it must be part of it because those cars don't make it here at all.

 

[D60]

You are lapping at the cusp of the conversation about the consumerism/conservationism paradox. In order for the economy to function as it does, we must continue to perpetuate the current rate of consumption as "good", while this necessarily underscores the issues with long-term durability and quality of the products that exist to serve that ideology. If we improve quality, we undermine consumerism and reduce the rate of consumption, which risks shattering the paradigm of the consumerism scheme.

These are in constant conflict, designing a product that lasts just long enough for people to see it as "good" so they buy another, but not long enough that it reduces the rate of consumption. This is also why there is so much pushback against "Right to Repair".

I absolutely agree. The lonely Maytag repairman....although I think he has been plenty busy for the past ~20 years.

What bothers me is the hypocrisy or immediate assumption that my "big gas guzzling" truck is "bad" while a "fuel efficient disposable" car is "good".

Obviously both are hyperbolic and I'm willing to consider maybe there's a middle ground. It would just be nice to believe "the other side" can consider this, too.

And while I'm wishing on a star, it would be nice if the most vocal touting ultra high efficiency understood how GDI or a CVT or variable displacement works, especially policy makers working to influence such decisions. But that's laughable I know.

 

[supton]

the CAFE footprint formula is at least part of it. How much gas you can burn is based partially on the footprint - or the track x the wheelbase. The bigger the car - the more CAFE allowance.

The safety mandates are another part.

Lots of companies make small cars for off-shore markets - but the whole CAFE thing and other rules make it hard to import. I don't know what percentage of the problem that is - but it must be part of it because those cars don't make it here at all.

I wasn't thinking CAFE but you're right, that has to be part of it. I was thinking more of NVH. If it's small, they're going to penalize you. For a long time (maybe still?) you couldn't get an electric seat in a Prius, and some wonky foot operated parking brake; I know my Corolla doesn't hold a candle to my Camry when it comes to NVH.

 

[CorvairGeek]

Given all the changes fuel economy does not appear to have been affected much as we went from throttle body 3800’s to whatever garbage ended up taking the v6 slot

Oddly, you picked an engine that never had throttle body injection, even in the older 3.8L designation.

 

[fdcg27]

I guess it all comes down to how one defines interesting.
To me, a bloated pickup with no real utility or an oversize SUV are merely examples of conspicuous consumption consumption intended mainly to impress others. These are no more than examples of lazy design and engineering. When weight makes no difference, everyone's job gets easier.
A really good small car is much harder to do and is far more entertaining to drive.
As things are now, we won't see a return to the days of many manufacturers exporting all manner of cars to this country. First, many of those manufacturers no longer exist as anything but a badge.
Second, as someone noted above, as long as gas remains cheap and the economy strong, few buyers will have the sense of subtlety to opt for a good small package but will instead go with the herd.

 

[Rmay635703]

Oddly, you picked an engine that never had throttle body injection, even in the older 3.8L designation.

Even better, still not di

 

[loneryder]

Chicken tax is the only reason Ford and GM are still around.

Just becuase the politics might swing doesn’t mean the auto industry will follow suit. They know the trend is for ever increasing efficiency, and they know that if they don’t innovate and develop technology they’ll be left behind by someone that does. I would advise not getting too rattled by short term swings. The long game wins.

The laws are still on the books. They are not being enforced. Next president comes in and starts the fines again.

 

[ripcord]

The laws are still on the books. They are not being enforced. Next president comes in and starts the fines again.

Sort of. Congress has to set the fines again.

 

[RBT]

I wouldn't mind DI going away, I know not all are bad, but enough were. PFI did just fine by me. And the CVT is just fine in my Corolla, but I wouldn't want it in anything larger.

But I do worry that I'll not be able to find low cost, durable, and comfortable cars in the future. CUV's are the sedan of today it seems; but I find myself wanting a wagon again. Problem is, OEM's like to penalize you if you go too small. I get it, "they don't sell" but one can't buy what isn't sold. I rather liked my Jetta wagon, most would hate the idea of a loaded compact but it remains my favorite & the only vehicle I owned for more than ten years.

Anyhow. What's the odds of another gas price fluctuation in the future?

Also, if they roll back the regs, could we get more Euro cars? I'm sure I'd regret owning one, in some way shape or form, but if emissions & safety regs are rolled back, what's stopping (other than tariffs) the importation, even new, of cars not typically sold here?

It is unlikely we will get more Euro models. The markets are different. Small wagons sell there because the higher price of fuel and typically less homeownership -
less places to store and park bigger vehicles. I always get a kick out of seeing tow hitches on a lot of small to medium wagons. In America you would just buy the bigger car / SUV.

Europe needs to figure out how to get their economy moving again. Consumers are not as prosperous there as a result. Jamie Dimon of Chase gave a speech covered in the business news pointing out that 15 years ago EU economic output and U.S. economic output were comparable. Today the U.S. is 40 percent bigger and the EU does not have nearly the number of innovative companies as the U.S. Their companies that go public need to access U.S. markets because the ones there simply aren’t deep enough. I think this trickles down to the consumer in terms of ability to have nicer things, at least that is my opinion based on the data I see.

 

[fdcg27]

Here's a nice IMF site that allows you to generate reports on various measures of economic performance over years as well as by country and region:

https://www.imf.org/external/datamapper/NGDPDPC@WEO/UVK/EURO/EU

Even in 2010, the US had about 30% higher GDP per capita as compared to the EU.
Today, US per capita GDP is around double that of the EU.
I have to say that this surprised me since I didn't expect the gap to be so great.

 

[SC Maintenance]

Here's a nice IMF site that allows you to generate reports on various measures of economic performance over years as well as by country and region:

https://www.imf.org/external/datamapper/NGDPDPC@WEO/UVK/EURO/EU

Even in 2010, the US had about 30% higher GDP per capita as compared to the EU.
Today, US per capita GDP is around double that of the EU.
I have to say that this surprised me since I didn't expect the gap to be so great.

You need to be a little bit careful on this calculation, simply because its in USD's so its calculating the changes in currency as well as the change in GDP. A house in Germany doesn't go up 20% in euro simply because the Euro is down 20% in dollar terms from a year ago. However some things do, like energy.

Also in the USA a lot of the GDP is from the Wall Street financial sector - so it skews the per capita part, but very few working people benefit from it at all. The big Wall Street banks have taken over global banking pretty much at this point - side benny of being able to borrow at zero from the fed. It used to be more spread around.

My only point is its not quite as simple as just comparing GDP per capita in dollar terms. I do agree that productivity in most countries has lagged the USA over the last decade.

 

[loneryder]

It is unlikely we will get more Euro models. The markets are different. Small wagons sell there because the higher price of fuel and typically less homeownership -
less places to store and park bigger vehicles. I always get a kick out of seeing tow hitches on a lot of small to medium wagons. In America you would just buy the bigger car / SUV.

Europe needs to figure out how to get their economy moving again. Consumers are not as prosperous there as a result. Jamie Dimon of Chase gave a speech covered in the business news pointing out that 15 years ago EU economic output and U.S. economic output were comparable. Today the U.S. is 40 percent bigger and the EU does not have nearly the number of innovative companies as the U.S. Their companies that go public need to access U.S. markets because the ones there simply aren’t deep enough. I think this trickles down to the consumer in terms of ability to have nicer things, at least that is my opinion based on the data I see.

EU has done away with their energy production to be green. Now they are scrambling to re open coal and gas plants. It’s always a shame when citizens have to suffer from their stupid leadership.