Front wheel drive winter tire reminder......

[Fordiesel69]

Just a reminder for those with FWD vehicles that REAR tires are equally important as your front drive tires. Using regular all season tread design on the rear with excellent studded snows on the front will prove near fatal.

Of course this applies to northern states with snow / ice.

I can cite many examples of this if needed.

From www.discounttire.com

Q. What can happen if I only use two winter tires?
A. Running only two winter tires can cause you to lose control of any vehicle. Here's why:

Front Wheel Drive Vehicles Even though the front wheels are responsible for steering, acceleration and most of the braking, don't forget about the braking done by the rear wheels. If the rear wheels are not equipped with winter tires too, you are essentially disabling the rear brakes due to lack of traction. The following is an example of what can happen using only winter tires on the front.

Traveling along in your neighborhood at 25 mph in just light snow, you begin to slow down to make a right turn. As you apply the brakes, your winter tires are doing their job, giving you all the traction you need to slow down. At the same time, the all-season tires on the rear are giving you much less traction causing the rear of your vehicle to slide around. Perhaps at slow speeds no harm is done, but what if this had occurred at highway speeds?

 

[bigjl]

This is not 100% correct.

When you use snow socks for example they are only meant to be placed on the driven wheels.

Snow tyres on just the front of a fwd car will improve traction and braking, but not stability.

If most of US Saloon based race cars were fwd you might have seen why what I have said is true.

When the rear of a fwd car oversteers the best way to get it back in line is to floor the throttle, this pulls the car straight.

It is one reason why a fwd is bit safer in low grip conditions.

All these "studies" including the one done by Michelin saying always out the new tyres on the front are done based on the assumption that the driver isn't as skilful as they may think.

Basically pandering to the lowest common denominator.

Or to ensure people buy four winter tyres instead of two.

A car with winters on the front only is not dangerous though is not going to be as stable as one with four winters.

Driver skill, judgement and good use of the throttle and steering are as important as the tyres you have on the vehicle.

There was a big snow in London in Feb 2009. I think it was something like 6/8 inches in about 5/6 hours.

It was a freak weather event that normally hit the UK every 20 or so years.

As such our infrastructure is not a Able to cope like in parts of the US and Canada that has this weather every year.

I was on duty in an RRV that night and yes it was slippery and yes a full set of winter tyres would have been handy, but the solution was to get snow socks delivered to stations, when I came in for my next shift my RRV was fitted with these snow socks, I wasn't impressed with the improvement so took them off.

Over the next three shifts(12 hrs a piece) I never go stuck and apart from some youthful exuberance by some members of the service driving beyond their abilities and crashing the period was largely incident free.

2010 and 2011 the fleet was fitted with winter tyres, but not this year.

It was shown to be not cost beneficial I think, or more likely the winter tyres went missing over the summer!

As that is allegedly what happened to most of the normal tyres during winter period.

I now expect to get flamed.

 

[Spazdog]

Originally Posted By: bigjl

All these "studies" including the one done by Michelin saying always out the new tyres on the front are done based on the assumption that the driver isn't as skilful as they may think.

I just remember putting two new Kumhos on the front of my Integra. The factory Michelins on the back still had almost all the tread and they are Michelins! What's the worst that could happen?

Pitched into the corner and the back end came around on me. JDM Dorifto Superstahhhhh!!!!

Went back and got 2 more cheap Kumhos for the rear. Problem solved.

I suspect the same is true for just running two winter tires on the front of a fwd car. You'll be fighting to keep the back end behind you. The good fronts let go too and you are going sideways or backwards into the wall, ditch, or oncoming traffic.

From hosting the SuperBowl during a particularly nasty ice storm, the DOT finally bought new snowplows and deicing equipment. We never plowed roads here before. Just threw dirt on the bridges (they call it sand but the way it sticks to your car, it's dirt) and hoped everybody behaved themselves.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: bigjl
All these "studies" including the one done by Michelin saying always out the new tyres on the front are done based on the assumption that the driver isn't as skilful as they may think.

"always out"? Not sure what you meant to say there.

However, neither Michelin nor any other tire manufacturer recommends putting newer/better tires on the front. Just the opposite.

 

[EddieCairns]

Snow socks are only basically to be used when conditions are difficult as advised on their website, driving with them on a non snowey roads will wear them out. So they are not a substitute for winter tyres in areas that get a reasonable amount of winter weather.

I assume London is not usually a problem with continued winter weather and it may be more suitable for snow socks!

I have had winter tyres on our cars since 1981 and we live in a snowey area of Aberdeenshire. Golfs and Polos in the 80's and 90's Subaru's and Suzuki Jeeps since.

I found the back end of the FWD cars did slide considerably more when normal tyres were on the rear in poor conditions and winters were on the front. I also noticed the braking performance was less steady with normal tyres on the back but braking in winter conditions has to be gentile even with winters all round.

I therefore used winters on all four wheels on both our FWD cars when we had them and on our 4WD cars.

The snow sock website suggests you use them on all four wheels on both RWD and 4WD but I could find no comment on FWD.

eddie

 

[mpvue]

I agree that all cars should use FOUR winter tires; however, if someone uses just winters on the front of a FWD car, and they take it easy, slow and steady, they will probably be fine.
as with AWD and 4WD where people think they are invincible, winter driving requires careful driving, leaving plenty of room, taking it slow, etc.
I've spent all of my life in LI, PA and VA, driving through the last 25 winters, and I've only once had a car (GMC Safari van) with dedicated winter tires. never had a winter accident.
I HAVE recommended winter tires many times however. it's a great idea, just never got to do it myself.

 

[bigjl]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: bigjl
All these "studies" including the one done by Michelin saying always out the new tyres on the front are done based on the assumption that the driver isn't as skilful as they may think.

"always out"? Not sure what you meant to say there.

However, neither Michelin nor any other tire manufacturer recommends putting newer/better tires on the front. Just the opposite.


Oops.

That's what happens when posting from an iPhone and it "corrects" you and you forget to double check!

Should have read "put", the Michelin study stated you should always put the new tyres on the front.

The reasoning being poorly skilled drivers are unable to adapt to the change in balance that the vehicle exhibits when the newer or more grippy tyres are on the front.

As the poster above says, the put new ones on the front then lost control, he was simply unable to adapt to the change in his vehicles handling balance.

I will stick to my opinion that this is a driver issue and not a tyre issue.

Though people will sometimes not realise that they are not as skilled as they believe they are.

Which is why this thread will descend into a flame war.

Some people are happy to admit they are not as good at Maths or Football even admit they are not as intelligent as others.

But just try to get somebody to admit they are not as good a driver as they think they are!

If have read a fair bit on this subject over the years including the Michelin study.

They all pander to the lowest common denominator.

People would rather blame their tyres or road conditions than themselves.

 

[lyle]

I drove a 1990 Nissan Stanza with 2 Firestone Winterfire snows on the front and regular all-seasons on the rear, albeit in a narrower 184/70-14 size rather than the standard 195/65-14. I never had a problem in 8 winters with this combination. The rear never felt like it was going to swap ends with the front, and it never happened to me. Drive according to the conditions and the "Mayan Armageddon" scenario of rears hanging out all over every time you corner will rarely happen. Sounds kind of like a Brazilian beach...

 

[gathermewool]

Originally Posted By: mpvue
I agree that all cars should use FOUR winter tires; however, if someone uses just winters on the front of a FWD car, and they take it easy, slow and steady, they will probably be fine.
as with AWD and 4WD where people think they are invincible, winter driving requires careful driving, leaving plenty of room, taking it slow, etc.
I've spent all of my life in LI, PA and VA, driving through the last 25 winters, and I've only once had a car (GMC Safari van) with dedicated winter tires. never had a winter accident.
I HAVE recommended winter tires many times however. it's a great idea, just never got to do it myself.


Ah, the 51st state of LI.

Last winter was my first with winter tires, and I'm never going back. I only run them a few months out of the year, so each set should last me 3-4 years, minimum.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: bigjl
Should have read "put", the Michelin study stated you should always put the new tyres on the front.

Which Michelin study? Certainly not this one...

 

[bigjl]

The information to use them on the front only of fwd was on an internal memo from the fleet department of the service I worked for, the information was from the snow so k company.

And yes you are correct they are for snow covered roads only.

In Feb '09 this was the case as very few roads got cleared or gritted.

Our control room was advising the local councils which roads were to be prioritised and which were still passable.

We were also advised to only out them on the outer rear wheels of the Ambulances only, not on the front.

When they were first handed out they were out on outer rears and fronts and all wheels of the fwd vehicles..
The service has now started to buy Skoda Octavia estates with 4wd, the same system as fitted to the Audi TT, so I think they are fwd till extra grip is needed.

Funny you should say you live in Aberdeen and run winters.

A school friend lives near Cruden Bay and he runs normals tyres, albeit he has an XC70, actually almost identical to GearHeadTools!

He did manage to get caught out in the snow due to a fresh snowfall on top of ice, which led to the demise of his A4 1.8T Quattro, a pretty rare car, at least in the UK.

 

[Astro14]

Take it from a guy who lived where it snows more than half the year (not from a guy for whom snow is a freak event): go with 4 winter tires only. Never just 2.

It's a stability thing, not a traction thing. The characteristics of true winter tires are so different than regular tires that you need all 4 wheels to have similar traction and response. That's why every manufacturer (of cars, not tires) recommends mounting 4. In many states, provinces and countries where it snows, 4 winter tires are the law.

 

[Zaedock]

Originally Posted By: Fordiesel69
Using regular all season tread design on the rear with excellent studded snows on the front will prove near fatal.


I think this is a bit of an exaggeration.

Like the other thread regarding RWD, any time I had snows on the driven wheels and good tires on the free, I did just fine.
Perhaps it's not ideal, but all those years of driving and I'm not dead yet.

The problem with people is that they can't drive for beans when it's dry. Throw some wet or snowy roads in the mix and all bets are off even if they had tank treads.

 

[bigjl]

Michelin didn't use footage like that in their study, a tyre retailer in the UK did however.

You will note that they will probably say things like putting the new tyres on the rear will make such things less likely.

The issue comes from the way a fwd cars handling balance changes as the front tyres wear away.

Resulting in a rearward bias in the handling balance.

Out new tyres on the front and the balance changes, but not everybody can adjust to this new balance and they assume, most likely subconsciously.

I am struggling somewhat with putting my what I mean in writing.

If with worn tyres you have "X" grip at the front and "X+Y" grip at the rear.

"Y" being the extra grip due to the rear being less worn.

When you put new tyres on the front you suddenly have "2X" at the front but still "X+Y" at the back.

Hope that make sense?

Not everybody has the ability to sense this shift in balance.

And they drive over estimating how much rear grip there is.

Fwd and rwd do handle a lot differently which I think is part of the issue here.

A fwd car wear the fronts quicker a rwd car wear the rears quicker.

People get used to putting new rears on a rwd car and the handling balance staying biased towards the rear.

This is just advice to ensure those of a lower skill level are not caught out.

And to be honest it would be better if they used this research to encourage regular tyre rotations.

That is one thing that I have taken on board after reading this forum.

Tyre rotations are not common practice in the UK.

I think they should be.

One thing when driving service vehicles, fwd ones at least is the fact they were inspected and serviced very regularly.

And by 2004/5 I suspect they had started rotating tyres.

Up till then we had Astras, but only about 50 or so and they were only tasked to the highest category calls so only did about 15k to 20k miles a year with 24/7 on the run.

They got around an extra 350 after 2005 and started to task them on many different calls so annual mileages started to increase to the 25k to 30k level.

But I can state catagorically that tyres were not routinely replaced in axle sets and new ones were not put on the rear unless the rears needed replacing.

They did tend to replace tyres well before legal limits though, I believe 2mm was the service limit, but rarely were tyres that worn as if it went for a service and the tyres were likely to get to 2mm within the service interval(3k or 6 weeks) they were changed.

Every fitters had several sets of pre fitted up wheels ready to go.

The biggest improvement with tyres was when they changed the contract from Goodyear to Michelin.

Costco will not fit a pair of new tyres to the front of a car,only the rear, as Michelin have told them it is safer.

There is and never was such an instruction from Michelin to my service.

That might be relevant to this discussion!

 

[bigjl]

Originally Posted By: Astro14
Take it from a guy who lived where it snows more than half the year (not from a guy for whom snow is a freak event): go with 4 winter tires only. Never just 2.

It's a stability thing, not a traction thing. The characteristics of true winter tires are so different than regular tires that you need all 4 wheels to have similar traction and response. That's why every manufacturer (of cars, not tires) recommends mounting 4. In many states, provinces and countries where it snows, 4 winter tires are the law.



What does your post actually add.

You have been running longer than Usain Bolt, does that make you better?

This isn't about who has been doing something longer.

You can do things the wrong way longer, still doesn't make you right.

There is nothing wrong with just putting winters on the front of a fwd car, it will allow traction.

But it will not allow the car to drive like it does in the dry or as if it has four winter tyres.

But will allow you to get were you are going.

Ever watched Ice Road Truckers?

Why did they only put chains on the driven wheels?

If somebody can't figure out that having winters on the front isn't going to give them the same grip as putting them all round should probably stick to putting them all round.

But life isn't perfect.

We don't all have the spare cash.

Putting them on the front is better than nothing.

As long as you can adapt to the change in the way the car will handle.

And condescension is not really helpful.

 

[Astro14]

It's about experience.

I have quite a bit of experience in serious snow... Not just the occasional anecdotal story from one snowfall.

 

[durallymax]

Originally Posted By: bigjl


Ever watched Ice Road Truckers?

Why did they only put chains on the driven wheels?



While I wouldn't want to encourage using IRT as an informational source, I have some light to shed on your analogy.

There are some guys who will chain the steers, not many but some will in bad enough conditions. Its generally never required.

Many don't chain the steers for the fear of the damage they could cause. Same reason most people don't run recaps for steers. Too many expensive pieces up there.

The guys running mountain passes probably aren't running around in trucks spec'd for the mainland. Most have full lockers. With full lockers you can turn the steering wheel all you want and you're going straight. I've forgotten to unlock the axles many times and had the face in palm moment as a slid straight ahead. The cross lock can remain in but with all 4s locked there aren't many times you can turn much, which those guys don't have to do, the big passes and such have long sweeping curves.

In addition to all of this, your drives do the majority of the braking on a semi. First you have the engine braking through them, then you add in the mechanical braking, the trailers also hanging out back as well working to hold you back.

Many drivers will just slide the 5th wheel to transfer more weight to the steers if needed.

 

[Smokescreen]

I have driven with just 2 snows and being up in Canada snow driving is something I have grown up with, it just doesn't compare to the stability, control and safety of all 4. While you can sometimes get by with non-winters...once you go full set of winters I would feel silly even considering going back. The safety and control gained are without question. I am willing to pay a small premium for those items. If not, all the power to you.

Making analogies with 60,000 lbs trucks is futile. Weight makes a huge difference...but we are driving cars here right?

 

[SwampSurvivor]

The chains on trucks are set up only to give forward and braking traction, they won't turn that well (as they're perpendicular with the vehicle).

Also, the steer tires on trucks have very large ribs for turning.

Most older truck drivers will say that the older trucks without front brakes were much easier to drive and meaneuver in the snow. The reason is - the front tires served ONE purpose only: to steer. The rear axles would provide power/braking and the fronts would steer only. Very hard to push the front tires too far. New trucks with brakes on all wheels are much harder to steer ans they'll lock up and slide in the front.

The chains don't provide the lateral grip needed.