Frequent oil changes cause more wear?!

Messages
508
Location
Brittany, France
I was looking at a few BMW and Mercedes forums and some people say that short drain intervals will cause more wear because the antiwear additives need time to cling to the surfaces and are washed off with "too frequent" oil changes. I'm not advocating unnecessarily short OCIs but if there's proof that clean oil will cause more wear, i want to know about it, that is new to me. Would it be because different additives are temporarily working against each other if you switch brand/viscosity? I know a few people changing their oil every 5k km (3k miles) and and while i tell them to run it longer, they all have the healthiest never opened high mileage engines i know, some well over 500k km. Educate me because i am not gullible enough to believe that without proof.
 
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17,744
Location
NH
I recall that bit, from like 15 years ago? I believe someone did some UOA's every 1k and wear would settle down after like 5k. Thus leading to this idea.
 
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5,372
Location
down in the park
yes, and no

is the clean oil actually clean? They usually aren't...
is the oil filter changed, and thus the galleries emptied so running without oil supply for a few seconds?
how accurate are oil analysis? is 3 ppm actually 3 ppm, or can it be 0.5 ppm, or 10 ppm or anywhere in that range?
how much old oil is mixing with new? With 10 ppm iron in the old oil, and 90% drained, the new oil starts with 1 ppm iron etc...
 
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17,034
Location
Upper Midwest
To get you started on this repeat question:






 
Messages
2,236
Location
Paradise of Florida
Does that include fuel dilution percent comparisons? or how to create a change interval point to minimize that make believe wear? or the prefilled vs not prefilled filters(hint hint)? or just another useless silly blanket statement trying to cover all engines, all filters, all oils types/grades, all driving styles, all vehicles???

Statement was created by environmentalists wanting to save a few gallons of motor oil while you destroy your engine. Same fools attacked jippylubes 3k/3mo marketing. That worked out great for a few class action lawyers.

I haven't seen engines wear out with more frequent maintenance. Have seen plenty sludged/varnished/crudded engines that had textbook/dealer maintenance, along with worn out timing chains/tensioners/guide/vvt's.... along with the engine rattlers/knockers/clatterers, and way too many oil burners. When does your warranty expire? You will be visiting me afterwards!

Please don't maintain it. I need a new RV paid by replacing your engines and transmissions, and the wife wants to sell the beach condo and buy a beach house. You will pay for it later if you don't lease or trade in regularly.
 
Messages
10,631
Location
Jupiter, Florida
To equate UOA results with wear rates is absolutely and utterly incorrect. We've known for years that worn out engines with infrequent oil changes often have a lifelong history of superb UOA results.

UOA results are a tool, and are quite useful when properly used (trend monitoring, for example) (monitoring for known component failure, with a specific signature is another example)

The aircraft engine this came from had excellent UOA results, but debris in the filter. The wear rate was never seen in the UOA.

DSC00149_resize_with_arrow.jpg


UOA results are where the "infrequent oil change is better" urban-legend comes from. It's provably wrong. I regularly post about timing and balancer chain life, low tension piston ring wear and the direct association with particulate matter, fuel dilution, wear rates and premature failure. Bottom line, oil with a heavy particulate load and/or fuel dilution markedly increases wear rates. The frequent oil change is the right way to reduce operating time under these conditions. Additionally, the proper oil choice matters too.

Look up Ford's timing chain/phaser and Honda's ring wear issues, the oil change intervals and the fuel dilution/particulate matter rates.
 
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Messages
1,454
Location
Texas, USA
I've had nothing but positive results from 3,000, and later, 5,000 mile OCIs. I have no economic, time constraint, or ability reasons to prevent my current process. Some folks aren't lucky enough to have the money (or time) for a Jiffy Lube oil change every 5,000 miles, so they push it to, and beyond the limit, and their engines pay for it later. See GM 3.6 & 2.4 timing chains, for reference. Unfortunately for the used-car buying public, those engines normally end up with a new owner before the side effects start to reveal themselves, so, win-win, right? This is an instance where I disregard the owner's manual if it calls for OCI mileage higher than 5,000. Can't do it.
 
Messages
284
Location
Carolinas
Changing oil very frequently is as good as having an extra few quarts/gallons in your crankcase. I have a 2.0 TDI with a 6 quart capacity and wish I had 10.
 

M119

Thread starter
Messages
508
Location
Brittany, France
The reason i am afraid of long intervals is timing chain stretch, not very scientific but my gut feeling tells me clean oil will always be the best way to prevent it. On the engines i have, long intervals are quite usual however chain stretch and power loss always happen at some point. If you think about it, an oil change is so easy on these old cars, it only takes a few minutes, a 5L jug and a filter, about 20 to 30 bucks which is nothing compared to a tank of gas.
 
Messages
408
Location
SW Missouri
We were taught in college that frequent oil changes on OTR engines are detrimental at a certain point. They would have to be exceedingly short though to show any long term effects I think. The reasoning is that most oil filters hold over a half gallon and engine manufacturers don’t want you to prefill anymore. The engine has to move a lot of oil before pressure ever comes up. With that said my parents Taurus has always been serviced between 3000-3500 miles except for a rare occasion and is approaching 400k miles. The valve covers were off last week and the mechanic said it was clean enough he would eat off them.
 
Messages
5,429
Location
KC
I was looking at a few BMW and Mercedes forums and some people say that short drain intervals will cause more wear because the antiwear additives need time to cling to the surfaces and are washed off with "too frequent" oil changes. I'm not advocating unnecessarily short OCIs but if there's proof that clean oil will cause more wear, i want to know about it, that is new to me. Would it be because different additives are temporarily working against each other if you switch brand/viscosity? I know a few people changing their oil every 5k km (3k miles) and and while i tell them to run it longer, they all have the healthiest never opened high mileage engines i know, some well over 500k km. Educate me because i am not gullible enough to believe that without proof.

In short, yes for normal situations. You would have go back about 15 years or so on this site to find detailed discussions. I believe there are even technical papers covering the topics, too.

The general findings were yes, the cleaning additives at initial fill remove the AW additives from the previous fill and then it takes time for the AW additives in the fresh oil to be "put down" again.

Is it a drastic increase in wear? I don't think there is any evidence to indicate that but there was plenty of evidence to support longer drain intervals "can" lead to lower wear rates.
 
Messages
1,204
I remember reading about this theory years ago, in fact I’ll go so far to blame this theory on my rings getting coked up and me having to trade in my car way before I anticipated. Remember many people saying things like...your oil life monitor and manufacturer know more than you. Then five years later those same manufacturers that “knew more than everyone”, reduced their oil life monitor mileage length. And those same manufacturers that suggested 20,000 mile, 15,000 mile, oil changes, reduced them. That did happen, right? GM, VW, others. I’m not imagining that am I? I’m serious, I know GM reduced theirs and maybe VW, but there were others, right? BMW I believe? After their dealerships were filled with engines needing replacing?

Now the latest is Toyota. Their 10,000 mile oil changes that I believe are only suggested here in the US? I could be wrong about that. But there are now Toyota techs on YouTube telling you...please, please don’t do the 10,000 mile oil changes - stick to 5,000, you’ll never have a problem, maybe 6,000, but the 10,000 mile oil changes will give you trouble when you start getting up into the 100,000-120,000 mileage mark. There are techs saying that now. Oil consumption, replacing rings, replacing pistons. Just change it at 5,000 miles because most of us are in the “severe” use category and we don’t even realize it.

Now I could be wrong about all of this^^, but even still, I don’t buy that more frequent oil changes are worse on your engine than longer intervals. You want to tell me that longer intervals save the environment, save money and shorter ones are not needed? Ok, fine, but don’t tell me they’re better than short intervals. Lol.
 
Messages
27,186
Location
PNW
We were taught in college that frequent oil changes on OTR engines are detrimental at a certain point. They would have to be exceedingly short though to show any long term effects I think. The reasoning is that most oil filters hold over a half gallon and engine manufacturers don’t want you to prefill anymore. The engine has to move a lot of oil before pressure ever comes up. With that said my parents Taurus has always been serviced between 3000-3500 miles except for a rare occasion and is approaching 400k miles. The valve covers were off last week and the mechanic said it was clean enough he would eat off them.
Maybe filters on a big semi-truck engine might hold over half gallon (2 quarts) of oil. Most regular passenger car filters only hold 8~12 ounces.
 

4WD

Messages
16,640
Location
Texas
Of course some folks who make very long runs on both oil and engine have:

1) An advanced oil like Amsoil SS
2) An engine that does not dilute the oil
3) A bypass filtration system to remove ultra fine contamination that is not just abrasive but creates surface tension
4) Run UOA’s

Many other folks ain’t in to all that and accept 5000-7500 as the new 3K OCI
 
Messages
79
Real world results show otherwise. Time after time people have ruined their engines from neglecting oil changes, or their engine starts consuming oil because they follow a 10k mile recommendation. I have a 126,000 miles on my engine, oil changes every 5-6k and it doesn't consume a drop of oil despite being an engine that supposedly everyone else has an oil consumption problem with.

I suppose someone could go overboard and change their oil every 1k and do more harm than good but it's seems to be more of a theoretical problem than a real one.
 
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