FRAM explains why they use cardboard...

[novadude]

Brian Barnhart = A voice of reason

KCTom... regarding your "improper cross reference" comment, and it's relation to media. Do you honestly believe that Fram has a custom media for each and every filter application? Somehow, I do not think this would be practical, and I think the folks at Honeywell probably feel this way too. They have done a great job of cost reducing Fram filters, it is unlikely that they would stock multiple medias for the EG line. Doing so would not make sense from a cost / mass production standpoint.

Face it... Fram has some percieved design deficiencies. Are they evil junk that will trash your motor? I Doubt it. Are they the best bang-for-the-buck? Personally, I vote "no".

I see no big reason to bash Fram, however, you will not see me purchasing one of their filters. If you like 'em, good for you!

 

[kctom]

sbc350gearhead,

I saw no evidence that the Fram was subpar. There was no evidence presented to establish this pore method as an active predictor of filtering efficacy. Yes, the Fram had a lower flow rate. But without knowing the OEM specs there is absolutely no reason to believe that his would cause excessive wear.

In fact Bobistheouilguy did an interesing experiment comparing Fram with the highly touted Mobil 1 filter. The Fram beat the Mobil 1 convincingly over a 7000 mile test interval.

You know what they say: An ounce of emperical data is worth more that a ton of theory.

 

[ZR2RANDO]

Thomas Pyrek,
Wish we could see the insides of that filter..
That filter (tg3682) is the current version that Nissan calls for my Nissan truck (1989 4 cyl). Years ago Nissan called for the tg43. The 43 is larger, the 3682 is a smaller, more generic sized filter that fits more models..
I use the Motorcraft FL300 now (crossref for the 43.....)
That 43 (and I assume the 3682 which replaces it..) filter has an internal bypass in it..if it died due to high pressure-the bypass must have failed....Fram said it had a problem with overpressure? Would really be cool if we could see the guts...

 

[kctom]

novadude,

A person interested in the most accurate data makes the fewest assumtions possible.

This test confimed that one of the filters that Fram does not recomend for this application may, in fact, not be a good choice. WOW

If the readiably available and cheap PH5 was an acceptable choice for the Merc Cruiser, wouldn't Fram recomend it over the much more expensive and very difficult to find filter. You don't sell very many filters if they are very expensive and hard to find. But those are the actions of a reputable company.

Basically Grease made an unsupported decision to substitute this PH5 filter just to save a few bucks. That tells me exactly how much he thinks of his own work. If the most accurate results possible weren't worth $10 to him then his conclusions are worth nothing to me.

This leads me to the conclusion that Fram has integrity. You can draw your own conclusions about someone that would subvert his own findings for a few bucks.

 

[Rick]

Fram filters are **** . I have seen to many of them center tubs collaps. As well as hole's gouged though the filter media.
Wix filters for me all the way

 

[kctom]

Thomas Pyrek

Before you come to the conclusion that you have found a defective Fram filter, check this out. Oil Filture Manufacurers Concil
As much as you would like to blame Fram for this failure, the people who represent all of the filter manufactuers point the finger in other directions.

KCTOM

 

[ZR2RANDO]

KCTOM,
that particular filter has a bypass INSIDE it...
We get the message, you like Frams no matter how bad they may be, use'em all you want. You are not convincing anybody here that they have any good selling points compared to other brands. Good luck to you with your preference for Frams.

 

[JohnBrowning]

kctom, If you honestly belive that one needs an expert to rule on everything you are part of what is wrong with America. We have lost self reliance. Learning and exploreing your world is important. Most significant break throughs in technology have come from rank amatures!

Most so called experts are so mired in what can not be done that they have no time for what can be done! I have known a lot of engineers and doctors that for the right price would say what ever you wanted them to say! I have worked for companys that took bribeing so called experts( any one that must be liscensed )to a form of art!

If and when you ever have a filter problem related to Fram I trust you will keep it to your self!

SO when are you going to start cuting open your filters and looking for damage? Are you going to check wear metals and insolubles to see how your filters are doing?

IF the over priced Frams are working so well for you why not try something cheaper! It would be hard not to put more money in your pocket with a filter every bit as good? Walmart's ST line is a lot cheaper!

 

[Thomas Pyrek]

quote:

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Originally posted by kctom:
Thomas Pyrek

Before you come to the conclusion that you have found a defective Fram filter, check this out. Oil Filture Manufacurers Concil
As much as you would like to blame Fram for this failure, the people who represent all of the filter manufactuers point the finger in other directions.

KCTOM

---

Where in any of those posts did I say "I'M BLAMING FRAM!!!!"

I didn't say that because I am not saying that. And besides, FRAM agreed on two of the three occasions that I know of that they destroyed an engine. None of the conditions present on that website were happening on the engine at the time of destruction. The evidence certainly points the finger towards them. That's all I'm stating.

Please quit acting like an ostrich and pull your head out of the ground. We have sound reason to not like FRAM. We don't care that you like FRAM. You are not going to change our minds. The only person who can change our minds is FRAM and that is by redesigning a filter that is worth buying compared to other filters. For the money, no FRAM oil filter is built to a level I would like. I, however, do purchase their other products such as air filters and sure drain. Why? Because they are good and I can buy them at a price I find reasonable for their cost.

So far you have added absolutely nothing to this argument but your feelings which, in my opinion, are worthless. Feelings don't mean anything in a world dictated by logic and results. Everything I've seen about the tests of FRAM filters comes back with results stating that they are mediocre at best. Logic (at least my logic) tells me that I should buy something that tests better if it is the same price or cheaper. If something is inherantly flawed in the way I think, please let me know.

[ February 25, 2004, 11:35 PM: Message edited by: Thomas Pyrek ]

 

[1maniac]

Wasn't there a post a while back here about FRAM filters comming apart in Dodge truck engines? As I recall the filter media was found floating around inside the engine.

That's enough for me to choose something else.

 

[Ray H]

Very nicely reasoned post, Brian Barnhart! I, too, have questioned the, "Fram is crap!" knee-jerk party line, though I haven't personally used them for at least a decade. They're probably adequate, but should definitely be of better construction for the price. One thing I will note concering a point you touched on is the issue of using the cardboard endcaps to center the filter medium: since oil pressure is equally distributed throughout the intake chamber, I'm not sure there'd be much if any liklihood of the filter medium shifting position within the canister.

 

[JohnnyO]

If Fram will buy you a whole new engine every so often, then maybe they're not such a bad deal after all.

 

[Thomas Pyrek]

yes, and it's even on their website if you look for the link. There's a bunch of other stuff too. And probably to nobody's surprise, a pdf version of that link that kctom posted is on the fram site as well.

 

[novadude]

quote:

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Basically Grease made an unsupported decision to substitute this PH5 filter just to save a few bucks.

---

The PH5 is a very popular filter that is a direct cross reference to the PF1218 and other filters used in this study!

 

[Brian Barnhart]

The pictures of the damaged Fram filter remind me of similar pictures of an Amsoil filter posted a few months back. As I recall, the Amsoil filter had a collapsed center tube.

Collapsed center tubes are generally caused by excessive oil pressure and are not related to the filter. An exception would be a defective center tube.

The most obvious cause of excessive oil pressure would be a stuck (closed) oil pump bypass valve (not the oil filter bypass valve). Perhaps very low oil temperatures (high viscosity) and high engine RPM could also be contributors.

The SAE Oil Filter Test Procedure (HS-806) provides a recommended test for center tube collapse. I suspect all the oil filter manufacturers run these tests on at least one representative sample of each filter they produce. I could find no actual requirement for center tube withstand pressure in the SAE document, nor have I seen any published test results. It’s possible that center tube withstand pressure requirements are left up to the manufacturers, and could vary by brand. Design, quality and manufacturing tolerances would also lead to variations in center tube withstand pressure levels.

It’s hard to say with certainty whether Fram oil filters have more quality problems than other brands. If they sell 4X the filters of the next leading brand, their quality would need to be 4X better to prevent more actual field failures than the next leading brand. Or, looking at it another way, if Fram’s quality was the same, there would be 4X the number of field failures.

Does Fram have more than their share of oil filter failures (i.e. their quality is worse)? I have no idea, and cannot give an accurate answer within the very limited scope of my experience.

 

[Mystic]

A long time ago I used to use FRAM oil filters (and mostly Pennzoil oil) all the time. Then I had problems with two FRAM oil filters on two different cars. And I discovered the Oil Filter Study on the internet. I started using different brands of oil filters.

I don't have anything against FRAM. And I am not an expert on oil filter design. I am just a customer and I try to buy the best products for the best price that I can for my car.

I mentioned the problems that I had with a couple of oil filters. When I have problems with a certain brand I tend to switch to something else. But also I did not like the appearance of the FRAM oil filters that had been cut apart in the Oil Filter Study (the cardboard endcaps, the plastic valves, the appearance of the filtering media, etc.). I am not an oil filter engineer. Maybe FRAM makes the best oil filters in the world for all I know. And Bob did have great wear results using Schaeffer's Oil and FRAM oil filters. I have to make decisions based on my experience, information I am able to come across, and appearance of a product. I am just a customer.

Based on all of the above I swtiched from FRAM and used other brands. I would love to use FRAM oil filters if I personally thought the quality was there-FRAM is everywhere and I would not have to do some searching for an oil filter.

I now own a car that uses an oil filter element. I can SEE what the oil filter media looks like. I don't have to cut an oil filter can apart. If I come across an oil filter element made by FRAM that will work on my car and it looks good to me and is available at a reasonable price I will buy it. I will also buy WIX or whatever else is available for the same reasons. I probably would look at the WIX made oil filter element first in all honesty but my experience with FRAM oil filters has not been stellar. Even though I am an old man now I tend to remember who has treated me badly in the past.

I feel that everything I have said in this post is fair and reasonable. I am not an engineer and I don't work for an oil filter manufacturer. I am just a customer trying to buy good products at good prices. Anybody feel that this post is unfair or unreasonable?

 

[Brian Barnhart]

Mystic wrote:

quote:

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Anybody feel that this post is unfair or unreasonable?

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Not me.

Many people, including myself, avoid brands they've had problems with. I've had several problems with a certain company's software, and refuse to buy any more of their products. There's no reason oil filters should be any different.