What about it? Does this sound logical, or just more hype to explain lower production materials cost???
Fram replies to the cardboard endcap question....
- Thread starter TheLoneRanger
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As a Fram user for over 25 years,I have to go along with what they say.I've never had any type of engine failure with a Fram oil filter.We have used them in our drag race engines,and our engines usally go on a average of 5 years before any type of overhaul is needed.Our bearings and other associated parts have always looked good.My personal street vehicles have gone over 150,000 miles using Fram.
Well, this reply from Fram really shouldn't surprise anyone. I mean, what did we think they would say? "Oh, gee...you're right. We make our filters with inferior components."
I would ask the person at Fram who wrote this, if cardboard end caps are so good, why doesn't their most expensive filter, the X2, use them? Why does it have metal end caps? Also, the side of the endcaps that the filter media isn't glued to has to seal against the anti-drainback valve/gasket on the inlet side, as well as the bypass valve on the other end. If the cardboard warps (even just a little), this seal is compromized.
I would ask the person at Fram who wrote this, if cardboard end caps are so good, why doesn't their most expensive filter, the X2, use them? Why does it have metal end caps? Also, the side of the endcaps that the filter media isn't glued to has to seal against the anti-drainback valve/gasket on the inlet side, as well as the bypass valve on the other end. If the cardboard warps (even just a little), this seal is compromized.
Nor does their reply explain the crushed & colapsed canisters when removing the filters that I suspect is due to the card board interiors.
Funny,I got the exact same reply and I posted it on a different board. It must be a canned reply. It was as follows.
Mr. Thomas:
Thank you for the e-mail regarding the construction of Fram oil filters. We welcome the opportunity to be of service.
Fram filters meet the requirements of the original equipment filter designed for a specific engine. Our filter
applications follow the recommendations of the vehicle manufacturer for form, fit, and function. Fram filters follow
internally targeted design guidelines to meet the functional requirements of a given filter. Fram filters are tested
against SAE standards to ensure uniform product quality and performance. Material construction will vary between filter
manufacturers. We believe Fram filters have a proven record for providing reliability, superior quality, and engine
protection over the service life of the filter.
A common misunderstanding among our customers concerns the end disks in the oil filter. These disks hold the glue which
keeps the pleated media formed into a rigid circular tube. The glue-to-media interface is also one of the sealing
surfaces keeping dirty and filtered oil from mixing. One common myth is that only metal end disks can adequately seal
and have enough strength in the hot oil environment. For this reason, Fram filters are criticized for having cardboard
end disks. The issue is, the material doing the sealing is the adhesive, regardless of the material of the end disk.
What matters is the strength of the adhesive, its proper curing, the thoroughness with which it can be applied to the
disk, and its adhesion to the disk. By using cardboard end disks, Fram filter engineers are able to specify adhesives
with excellent strength and sealing properties, and strong adhesion to the disk (intuitively, it is easy to make a
strong glue bond with cardboard). Moreover, just as paper media itself is able to withstand the hot oil environment, so
too is the end disk designed of fibers engineered to be strong and inert in hot oil. The thickness and strength of the
adhesive also stiffens the end disk considerably.
Fram engineers perform hot oil circulation tests on the filter element and also regularly cut open used filters to
examine how well they have withstood the rigors of actual use on a vehicle. For over 38 years, Fram end disks have stood
up to hot oil and their adhesives have sealed off the dirty oil. We are not aware of any decision to change the end disk
design of Fram oil filters.
We believe Fram filters are clearly the best filters available. Fram is committed to standing behind and endorsing it's
products and filter recommendations listed in the current Fram application catalogs. As part of this commitment, if you
believe your Fram oil filters have failed due to the construction of the end disks, we encourage you to contact the Fram
Product Evaluation Team toll free at 1-877-250-8361 for further assistance.
Thank you for choosing Fram filters.
Cordially,
Scott Jacobs
Catalog/Technical Service Representative
Catalog/Technical Service Department
Mr. Thomas:
Thank you for the e-mail regarding the construction of Fram oil filters. We welcome the opportunity to be of service.
Fram filters meet the requirements of the original equipment filter designed for a specific engine. Our filter
applications follow the recommendations of the vehicle manufacturer for form, fit, and function. Fram filters follow
internally targeted design guidelines to meet the functional requirements of a given filter. Fram filters are tested
against SAE standards to ensure uniform product quality and performance. Material construction will vary between filter
manufacturers. We believe Fram filters have a proven record for providing reliability, superior quality, and engine
protection over the service life of the filter.
A common misunderstanding among our customers concerns the end disks in the oil filter. These disks hold the glue which
keeps the pleated media formed into a rigid circular tube. The glue-to-media interface is also one of the sealing
surfaces keeping dirty and filtered oil from mixing. One common myth is that only metal end disks can adequately seal
and have enough strength in the hot oil environment. For this reason, Fram filters are criticized for having cardboard
end disks. The issue is, the material doing the sealing is the adhesive, regardless of the material of the end disk.
What matters is the strength of the adhesive, its proper curing, the thoroughness with which it can be applied to the
disk, and its adhesion to the disk. By using cardboard end disks, Fram filter engineers are able to specify adhesives
with excellent strength and sealing properties, and strong adhesion to the disk (intuitively, it is easy to make a
strong glue bond with cardboard). Moreover, just as paper media itself is able to withstand the hot oil environment, so
too is the end disk designed of fibers engineered to be strong and inert in hot oil. The thickness and strength of the
adhesive also stiffens the end disk considerably.
Fram engineers perform hot oil circulation tests on the filter element and also regularly cut open used filters to
examine how well they have withstood the rigors of actual use on a vehicle. For over 38 years, Fram end disks have stood
up to hot oil and their adhesives have sealed off the dirty oil. We are not aware of any decision to change the end disk
design of Fram oil filters.
We believe Fram filters are clearly the best filters available. Fram is committed to standing behind and endorsing it's
products and filter recommendations listed in the current Fram application catalogs. As part of this commitment, if you
believe your Fram oil filters have failed due to the construction of the end disks, we encourage you to contact the Fram
Product Evaluation Team toll free at 1-877-250-8361 for further assistance.
Thank you for choosing Fram filters.
Cordially,
Scott Jacobs
Catalog/Technical Service Representative
Catalog/Technical Service Department
Well, you know my current belief that oil filters in today's engines are like the appendix, a useless appendage.
It also indicates that if you change your oil and filter every 3000 miles you can use the cheapest conventional oil found with a piece of crap filter and still get huge life from the engine.
Patman
Staff member
Didn't they switch to cardboard 15 years ago and before that always used metal?
If cardboard is so great, how come the 300 other filter brands out there don't use it? Only Fram and Purolator seem to think this cardboard is good.
If cardboard is so great, how come the 300 other filter brands out there don't use it? Only Fram and Purolator seem to think this cardboard is good.
Fram sucks. As you know I bought one of their fuel filters and the casing just split.
I'm going back to wal-mart and returning it. This way they'll have someone who returned a Fram product. If questioned I'll tell them the truth - that Fram products lack in quality. They have great marketing but the product is garbage.
I'm going back to wal-mart and returning it. This way they'll have someone who returned a Fram product. If questioned I'll tell them the truth - that Fram products lack in quality. They have great marketing but the product is garbage.
One of my own simple observations:
-The minute I droped Fram... valve noise was practicaly eliminated....
-The minute I droped Fram... valve noise was practicaly eliminated....
You beat me to it. I was getting to paste the same thing.quote:
Originally posted by JWRENCH:
They are probably the best available in a Fram Factory. Also interesting when you see brand X filter advertised in auto stores they always compare their cut-up version to Frams. From the smaller number of pleats to the paper thin shell, to the bypass valve seated in cardboard...pretty hard not to classify it as the worst.
I believe Fram that the cardboard end caps are sufficient and reliable construction for the life of a filter when the epoxy is of high quality. I have yet to see a filter disassembly showing a ruptured cardboard wall.
However, the quality of the anti-drainback valve, even on the highest quality Fram, is pathetic. Since I went to PureOne, my oil light goes out extremely quickly even when it's in the single digits (F).
However, the quality of the anti-drainback valve, even on the highest quality Fram, is pathetic. Since I went to PureOne, my oil light goes out extremely quickly even when it's in the single digits (F).
I have never seen a car with an oil filter opening facing down? What a mess that will be.
The valve holds oil up in the engine not in the filter. Poeple assume to to keep oil in the fiter but its just the opposite. It just a rubber (or some other material) seal that blocks the oil from flowing back down from the upper part of the engine. It helps eliminate nosey startups by keeping about 1/2 qt of oil closer to the engine valve train assembly.
Here is an example of 2 filters, on left no valve, right with valve
[ February 17, 2003, 12:24 PM: Message edited by: Mike ]
The valve holds oil up in the engine not in the filter. Poeple assume to to keep oil in the fiter but its just the opposite. It just a rubber (or some other material) seal that blocks the oil from flowing back down from the upper part of the engine. It helps eliminate nosey startups by keeping about 1/2 qt of oil closer to the engine valve train assembly.
Here is an example of 2 filters, on left no valve, right with valve
[ February 17, 2003, 12:24 PM: Message edited by: Mike ]
Here's the photo's, they set a time limit on edits.
Filter on left, no ADBV, filter on right has one
Filter on left, no ADBV, filter on right has one
I'll admit to some confusion on the purpose of the filter's "anti-drainback" rubber flapper one-way valve. If we assume that, 1> the filter is mounted upside down (unusual in current engines, but not unheard of either) and 2> at engine shutoff, the filter is essentially full of oil, the weight of that oil should press the rubber flapper valve against its seat and therefore prevent the return of oil back through the inlet holes and down into the sump. Fine, so far. But, wouldn't the oil held in the filter have another avenue of escape? ~THROUGH~ the filtration medium and out the filter's outlet? (Even though not pressurized, over time oil will seep through the filtration medium. By necessity and definition, the filtration medium is not impervious to fluid flow...) Of course, this would then be filtered oil, right? So, it seems to me that the purpose of the anti-drainback valve isn't meant to hold oil in the filter to prevent dry starts, but, rather, to prevent the return of UNfiltered oil back into the sump. I had an '82 Peugeot diesel that had its filter mounted upside down. My first oil change was predictably very messy. The second time around, I got a phone call just as I was about to unscrew the filter. When I returned to the task 15 minutes later, I was surprised that NO oil so much as dribbled out as I loosened and removed the oil filter (and the Peugeot oil filters for my car had an anti-drainback valve visible thorugh the inlet holes). Bright lad that I am, I gave subsequent filters a 10-15 minute wait thereafter.
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