The Endurance 3980 is smaller because ... It's a Royal Purple with a Fram label.
That’s right ^^^^
And…. That Fram Endurance filter is really using wire backing and it is chicken wire from that movie Roadhouse…

The Endurance 3980 is smaller because ... It's a Royal Purple with a Fram label.
@dnewton3 BITOG members have concluded that the Titanium filters are equal to the OG Ultra (pink media / wire backed) and also that the Endurance filters are Royal Purple filters which Ascent testing showed to be inferior to the Ultra.Pretty much all of this discussion is moot, because the average BITOGer will change that filter with the synthetic lube OCI at 5k miles, and so the differences of the filters is completely and utterly meaningless. I SERIOUSLY doubt any of us run a filter out to the edge of its practical use limits, so why you all argue about these nuances is beyond me.
IF AND ONLY IF the media in the two filters were identical, then we could make some reasonable assumption about holding capacity based on the surface area. But that's not true here, so any "assumption" has a false basis. We have no firm info to help us determine the actual important info. We need to know the performance data for holding capacity and efficiency; those are MUCH more important than surface area contrast.
Supposition and guessing are not the same as test results. Until we have real hard data from credible sources, this is just classic bench-racing garbage.
Just saying ...
@dnewton3 BITOG members have concluded that the Titanium filters are equal to the OG Ultra (pink media / wire backed) and also that the Endurance filters are Royal Purple filters which Ascent testing showed to be inferior to the Ultra.
* So a filter having 64.2% less of a filter media known to be inferior … if that’s moot / not worth discussion … and we should all just trust what’s:
even when all three of those info sources state different info at times, then what’s the point of the BITOG oil filter forum?
- on the box
- on the website
- what customer service says
(Note: the BITOG members concluding Titanium = OG Ultra, and concluding Endurance = Amsoil EaO and Royal Purple were completely based on appearances - not verified testing of any type.)
fwiw - I’ve not presented any assumptions or opinions as facts.there is something wrong when you present these videos as conclusive evidence of things that are only truly assumed.
Again - not trying to pick on you ... but this is a typical BITOG question.Which would you choose and why?
Like I said in post #10 in this thread (link below), even if the Endurance is the Royal Purple, there are many reasons why Fram can claim it has higher efficiency than what Ascent showed for the Royal Purple. So you think Fram is lying when they say the Endurance is 99+% @ 20u on their website - based on 3 sized filters in the Endurance line? I don't think so. They didn't lie about the OG Ultra efficiency, so why would they with the Endurance?@dnewton3 BITOG members have concluded that the Titanium filters are equal to the OG Ultra (pink media / wire backed) and also that the Endurance filters are Royal Purple filters which Ascent testing showed to be inferior to the Ultra.
I put most details in the video description (below). It’s a hobby, show, race, track car that gets 1-2 oil changes a year with generally low mileage OCIs.Again - not trying to pick on you ... but this is a typical BITOG question.
Unbounded parameters, unclear assumptions and undefined conditions.
For how long would your filter be in use (how many miles; how many years)?
What downtime is typical between run cycles if used as a "daily driver"?
For what operational conditions (easy driving; racing; weekend warrior use)?
Is the vehicle is stored for long durations between use?
What would it be paired with in terms of oils?
What other "tools" would be in use (UOAs? PCs?)
Are there any other unique or odd considerations that need to be taken into account not covered by the questions above?
As was said in the movie Jerry Maguire ... "Help me help you!"
I can't give a reasonable recommendation without understanding all the inputs to the equation.
fwiw - i was joking re all the weight given to the Ascent testing. i personally think all the "conclusions" reached by the BITOG community re the Ascent testing were a huge leaps (ridiculous) based on testing of a single filter from each line.Like I said in post #10 in this thread (link below), even if the Endurance is the Royal Purple, there are many reasons why Fram can claim it has higher efficiency than what Ascent showed for the Royal Purple. So you think Fram is lying when they say the Endurance is 99+% @ 20u on their website - based on 3 sized filters in the Endurance line? I don't think so. They didn't lie about the OG Ultra efficiency, so why would they with the Endurance?
Without an actual same test of the Endurance on same lab equipment and setup, it's a "leap" to claim that the Endurance would test the same as the Royal Purple did in the Ascent test and "conclude" the Endurance is "inferior" to the OG Ultra. Big leap without real proof.
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/t...rison-ti-is-64-2-greater.370964/#post-6548166
i have no reason to believe Fram is lying about their Endurance claims.
however...
i'm sure there's someone else here on BITOG that's at least curious, wishing for a detailed explanation, for how all of these things can be true at the same time. and the new 2023 Endurance filter is 100% identical in appearance to this 2011 Amsoil EA filter - even down to the greenish mark on the filter element:
- visually, applying the "depth filtration" explanation to the Titanium media seems reasonable - since it is thicker than all the many surface filtration elements out there. using depth filtration to explain how the Endurance filter works is harder to logically sell because the media is so thin. i'm certain it is true to a degree, but ...
- there's also less of it (less surface area) because of the shallow pleat depth compared to the Titanium and most other filters ...
- yet they claim the Endurance has the greatest contaminant holding capacity of any filter.
- And it can be run for 25,000 miles.
- AND it's marketed as a high-flow filter.
- AND you can only buy it from Walmart, two aisles down from the socks ... across from the Nerf guns
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fwiw, Fram doesn't say that they've ISO 4548-12 tested Endurance filters - the numbers on their website could be from TG or EG filters.Welcome to oil filters - the 8th wonder of the world, lol. Goes to show that no matter how many oil filters anyone cuts open and visually critiques, they can not tell anything real about the actual performance of said filters. That's why ISO 4548-12 was invented by an International committee, and has been used since 1999 to test the performance of automotive oil filters.
You've come up with a list above to try and "figure out" or "justify" why the Fram Endurance might not be what it claims to be, or that it's "exactly" like the Amsoil filter ... yet, if you believe what Fram claims about the efficiency and holding capacity - regardless of how it looks - then it's performing in ways that you can't align in your thoughts of how it should behave simply based on your visual inspection of the filter. Big leaps ... because only the ISO 4548-12 test (which is what Fram has done to back their performance claims) is the only way to know the real performance level of any oil filter.
This has been discussed many times before what Fram's efficiency statement actually means - and how Motorking tries to make Fram clarify their statements. Yes, Fram has tested the Endurance line of filters per ISO 4548-12. As mentioned before, no filter company can test filter line A, then make ISO 4548-12 efficiency claims about filter line B based on filter line A ... that's illogical. That's what you seem to believe. Contact Fram and tell us what they say.fwiw, Fram doesn't say that they've ISO 4548-12 tested Endurance filters - the numbers on their website could be from TG or EG filters.
Amsoil does not beat around the bush - they've tested Ea filters.
Do you definitively know why Fram includes this OR statement?This has been discussed many times before what Fram's efficiency statement actually means. Yes, Fram has tested the Endurance line of filters per ISO 4548-12.
*FRAM Group testing of average filter efficiency of FE8A, FE3387A and FE4967 ... under ISO 4548-12 for particles greater than 20 microns.
The "FE" line is the Fram Endurance models.
Someone at Fram is lazy and trying to be "clever" by making a statement like that to essentially say that the EG and TG lines are also using the same models (8A, 3387A and 4967 filters) in those filter lines. Whoever is running the Fram website and marketing department is inept or too lazy to make it more concise and clear.Do you definitively know why Fram includes this OR statement?
*FRAM Group testing of average filter efficiency of FE8A, FE3387A and FE4967 or equivalent FRAM TG or EG models under ISO 4548-12 for particles greater than 20 microns.
True, but then you have this independent “test”This has been discussed many times before what Fram's efficiency statement actually means - and how Motorking tries to make Fram clarify their statements. Yes, Fram has tested the Endurance line of filters per ISO 4548-12. As mentioned before, no filter company can test filter line A, then make ISO 4548-12 efficiency claims about filter line B based on filter line A ... that's illogical. That's what you seem to believe. Contact Fram and tell us what they say.
*FRAM Group testing of average filter efficiency of FE8A, FE3387A and FE4967 ... under ISO 4548-12 for particles greater than 20 microns.
The "FE" line is the Fram Endurance models.
Not a real ISO efficiency test, but a garage test. It's been discussed many times. If you believe those test results, then the Endurace came out as the winner between those four filters.True, but then you have this independent “test”
... So you think Fram is lying when they say the Endurance is 99+% @ 20u on their website - based on 3 sized filters in the Endurance line?...
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/t...rison-ti-is-64-2-greater.370964/#post-6548166