Fram Endurance Flashlight Test in canister

[mitsuman47]

Couldn’t “hurt” and would be another “data point.”
Would you be willing to cut it open and perform a “flashlight” test on it?

I don’t mind. However, I had planned to run this filter for 2-3 OCI’s and this is the first one. Not sure if it would be beneficial to cut it open sooner or later, or if cutting it open would be beneficial at all. Not worried about the cost of the filter. So, if it could glean valuable info, I don’t mind hacking it up.

Without another PC to compare it to from the same car with the same OCI under the same use conditions, one PC doesn't tell you much. If it came back relatively high particle counts per mL, it might indicate a leakage. Do you have any other PCs with other filters used on that car around the same OCI to compare to?

Unfortunately, this would be my first particle count. If needed, I can swap to a different filter for my next OCI. Not sure if/how I can help here. But, willing to take guidance/requests on how to proceed, if there’s any value to be gained.

Side note, I think I have more filters from the same lot, but will need to check when this one comes off.

 

[ZeeOSix]

I don’t mind. However, I had planned to run this filter for 2-3 OCI’s and this is the first one. Not sure if it would be beneficial to cut it open sooner or later, or if cutting it open would be beneficial at all. Not worried about the cost of the filter. So, if it could glean valuable info, I don’t mind hacking it up.

Unfortunately, this would be my first particle count. If needed, I can swap to a different filter for my next OCI. Not sure if/how I can help here. But, willing to take guidance/requests on how to proceed, if there’s any value to be gained.

You could get a PC just to see what ISO code it comes in at. But to try and compare the performance of different filters to each other on the same engine under the same OCIs and use conditions using a particle count, you would need to conduct a somewhat controlled test procedure to remove any variables. Definitely cut it open after use for a visual inspection.

 

[Ronn]

I don’t mind. However, I had planned to run this filter for 2-3 OCI’s and this is the first one. Not sure if it would be beneficial to cut it open sooner or later, or if cutting it open would be beneficial at all. Not worried about the cost of the filter. So, if it could glean valuable info, I don’t mind hacking it up.


Unfortunately, this would be my first particle count. If needed, I can swap to a different filter for my next OCI. Not sure if/how I can help here. But, willing to take guidance/requests on how to proceed, if there’s any value to be gained.

Side note, I think I have more filters from the same lot, but will need to check when this one comes off.

I would like to see the particle results with subsequent tear down and flashlight test post OC. Then run another OC with new filter..same model filter..same oil. …and perform another flashlight test.
In essence back to back tests, with different filters that are clones.

 

[ltslimjim]

Do we know or think that the Amsoil EA15K13 (same applications) are affected by this possibly leaking bypass?
They are e-core design (wire reinforced media, black plastic internal support and 13 inlet holes).
I'm literally invested in this answer as I have five of them manufactured May this year for my Frontier.
Thank you!

Interesting yours are ecore. I purchased a couple back in January. They are not e-core. Metal center tube with louvers. 10 inlet holes.

Date codes are:

00:38 067 261
&
18:31 067 261

Not sure how to read these…

 

[Fair enough]

I cut open an Ultra XG2 from Amazon today. Date code A41781, which comes to June 27, 2024 from a calculator and the date code stickie above.
Bob persons may want to know,
1. The can pops open about 1/8 in.
2. The media is not pink but light tan. Thicker and fuzzier than typical paper from just looking at it.
3. Louvers, seem open and not jagged.
4. The bypass valve was not removed, can see minor ruffles on the top flat where it seals.
5. Valve leaks light, on ends the most. Pressing slighty nothing got better on this first look. Not rotated, as found.
6. Through the louvers inside I can see wire backing, like diamond shape, silver color. Not the square black mesh.
7. Poppet black seal didn't show light leak.
8. Strong chemical smell, have to put outside, wash hands.

Have to delve more into it when have more chance. Was worth it to see for $4.50 including tax.

 

[Chumango]

The leak path in the Endurance discussed in this thread was calculated to be around 16% of the flow going into the filter

16% is likely a high number, as previously discussed.

The math says that with 10% bypass (no way to know if this is a conservative or non-conservative bypass amount without a very involved calculation) in a 99% efficient filter, the particulate count going to the engine is 12.2% of the particulate count that is generated by the engine on each oil pass. That assumes all particulate is >20 microns. With no bypass it is 1.1% of the particulate generated each pass. There are two ways to look at this. One is to say that the filter with the bypass has 12 x as much particulate going to the engine. Another take is that the filter with the bypass has 12% of the particulate that the filter with no defect has leaving the engine (yet still in the engine). A lot depends on where the particulate is generated and where the oil flows from there. A lot of speculation could be made about the impact of this.

Yes. Whip City Wrencher found a leaking Amsoil.

Whip City showed an Amsoil that had light visible at the sealing surface. Whether it is a leaker is unknown. It seems logical that it would be in actual service, but there is no definitive evidence of that.

Reminds me of the old joke of an engineer, mathematician, and statistician riding on a train. They pass a herd of sheep, and the engineer notes a black sheep in the herd. "There are black sheep in this area," he said. To which the mathematician replies, "No, there is at least one black sheep in this area." The statistician then says, "No, there is at least one sheep that is at least half black in this area."

 

[Glenda W.]

16% is likely a high number, as previously discussed.

The math says that with 10% bypass (no way to know if this is a conservative or non-conservative bypass amount without a very involved calculation) in a 99% efficient filter, the particulate count going to the engine is 12.2% of the particulate count that is generated by the engine on each oil pass. That assumes all particulate is >20 microns. With no bypass it is 1.1% of the particulate generated each pass. There are two ways to look at this. One is to say that the filter with the bypass has 12 x as much particulate going to the engine. Another take is that the filter with the bypass has 12% of the particulate that the filter with no defect has leaving the engine (yet still in the engine). A lot depends on where the particulate is generated and where the oil flows from there. A lot of speculation could be made about the impact of this.



Whip City showed an Amsoil that had light visible at the sealing surface. Whether it is a leaker is unknown. It seems logical that it would be in actual service, but there is no definitive evidence of that.

Reminds me of the old joke of an engineer, mathematician, and statistician riding on a train. They pass a herd of sheep, and the engineer notes a black sheep in the herd. "There are black sheep in this area," he said. To which the mathematician replies, "No, there is at least one black sheep in this area." The statistician then says, "No, there is at least one sheep that is at least half black in this area."

Sorry. We’ve been using the term leaker to mean it has gaps that leak light. Mine also leaked oil through the gaps with just gravity sooo….

 

[Ronn]

I cut open an Ultra XG2 from Amazon today. Date code A41781, which comes to June 27, 2024 from a calculator and the date code stickie above.
Bob persons may want to know,
1. The can pops open about 1/8 in.
2. The media is not pink but light tan. Thicker and fuzzier than typical paper from just looking at it.
3. Louvers, seem open and not jagged.
4. The bypass valve was not removed, can see minor ruffles on the top flat where it seals.
5. Valve leaks light, on ends the most. Pressing slighty nothing got better on this first look. Not rotated, as found.
6. Through the louvers inside I can see wire backing, like diamond shape, silver color. Not the square black mesh.
7. Poppet black seal didn't show light leak.
8. Strong chemical smell, have to put outside, wash hands.

Have to delve more into it when have more chance. Was worth it to see for $4.50 including tax.

Can you post a picture of light leaking from filter bypass ?
Thanks

 

[CharlieBauer]

I cut open an Ultra XG2 from Amazon today. Date code A41781, which comes to June 27, 2024 from a calculator and the date code stickie above.
Bob persons may want to know,
1. The can pops open about 1/8 in.
2. The media is not pink but light tan. Thicker and fuzzier than typical paper from just looking at it.
3. Louvers, seem open and not jagged.
4. The bypass valve was not removed, can see minor ruffles on the top flat where it seals.
5. Valve leaks light, on ends the most. Pressing slighty nothing got better on this first look. Not rotated, as found.
6. Through the louvers inside I can see wire backing, like diamond shape, silver color. Not the square black mesh.
7. Poppet black seal didn't show light leak.
8. Strong chemical smell, have to put outside, wash hands.

Have to delve more into it when have more chance. Was worth it to see for $4.50 including tax.

Wire backed is an interesting discovery seeing that the new Fram Ultra media apparently did not need wire backing. I seem to remember there was a time when the dual layer full synthetic media was not pink due to a supplier change / issue but it had no bearing on performance. Is that what we're seeing?

Re the metal end cap, is there a felt ring seal where the leaf spring meets it? How is the pleat spacing?

Lastly, I think the valve can be tested without cutting open the filter. Simply pour some oil down the center hole and let it sit. It should not go through. The viscosity is obviously not a match for hot oil so maybe some other oil that is thinner at room temperature is better for such a test.

 

[ZeeOSix]

16% is likely a high number, as previously discussed.

I think the calculation if pretty close based on the size of the gaps given by @Glenda W. (2 gaps, each at 0.020 by 0.75 inch in size) and the assumed filter flow and dP parameters used. That was modeling it like two individual very long thin rectangles with a discharge coefficient of essentially 0.50 and a small 0.8 PSI dP.

The math says that with 10% bypass (no way to know if this is a conservative or non-conservative bypass amount without a very involved calculation) in a 99% efficient filter, the particulate count going to the engine is 12.2% of the particulate count that is generated by the engine on each oil pass. That assumes all particulate is >20 microns. With no bypass it is 1.1% of the particulate generated each pass. There are two ways to look at this. One is to say that the filter with the bypass has 12 x as much particulate going to the engine. Another take is that the filter with the bypass has 12% of the particulate that the filter with no defect has leaving the engine (yet still in the engine). A lot depends on where the particulate is generated and where the oil flows from there. A lot of speculation could be made about the impact of this.

Yes, trying to come up with how this would impact the efficiency has many factors involved. Obviously, the most direct way would be to ISO test in very controlled manner to correlate the size and leak volume on the efficiency with the baseline being the same filter with zero internal leakage. But regardless, any oil filter that has a constant leak of 16% of the volume going through the filter isn't an ideal oil filter.

Like said before ... if you're into using leaky oil filters, make sure it's a high efficiency leaky filter.

Whip City showed an Amsoil that had light visible at the sealing surface. Whether it is a leaker is unknown. It seems logical that it would be in actual service, but there is no definitive evidence of that.

Every open flow gap/path will flow some amount of air or fluid through it if there's a dP across it. No physics on Earth will ever say otherwise.

Reminds me of the old joke of an engineer, mathematician, and statistician riding on a train. They pass a herd of sheep, and the engineer notes a black sheep in the herd. "There are black sheep in this area," he said. To which the mathematician replies, "No, there is at least one black sheep in this area." The statistician then says, "No, there is at least one sheep that is at least half black in this area."

Ever hear the one about the responses from an engineer and a physicist when they were each told "Every time you move towards that beauty queen, you can only move half the distance to her. The first one that gets there will get to go on a date with her". The physicist threw up his hands and said I give up right now, because that means I'll never get there if I can only move half way towards her ever time I move". The engineer said "I can get there close enough for practical purposes." There use to be a physicist at the college in my town that owned a VW bug. He use to put a thick blanket on the front hood in the winter to try and keep the engine warm ... but the worse part was the engine is in the rear in a VW bug.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Wire backed is an interesting discovery seeing that the new Fram Ultra media apparently did not need wire backing. I seem to remember there was a time when the dual layer full synthetic media was not pink due to a supplier change / issue but it had no bearing on performance. Is that what we're seeing?

Yeah, before most of the OG Ultras went to the new non-wire backed media I don't think the meida was as "pink and fuzzy" anymore. The one he got with wire backed media has a 178th day of 2024 build date, and that shows that not all Ultra models have swithed to the non-wire backed media. Maybe certain Ultra models will never go to non-wire backed media. Or maybe they are bringing back the wire backed Ultra ... but I doubt it.

 

[Ronn]

I cut open an Ultra XG2 from Amazon today. Date code A41781, which comes to June 27, 2024 from a calculator and the date code stickie above.
Bob persons may want to know,
1. The can pops open about 1/8 in.
2. The media is not pink but light tan. Thicker and fuzzier than typical paper from just looking at it.
3. Louvers, seem open and not jagged.
4. The bypass valve was not removed, can see minor ruffles on the top flat where it seals.
5. Valve leaks light, on ends the most. Pressing slighty nothing got better on this first look. Not rotated, as found.
6. Through the louvers inside I can see wire backing, like diamond shape, silver color. Not the square black mesh.
7. Poppet black seal didn't show light leak.
8. Strong chemical smell, have to put outside, wash hands.

Have to delve more into it when have more chance. Was worth it to see for $4.50 including tax.

Deleted

 

[Ronn]

Lastly, I think the valve can be tested without cutting open the filter. Simply pour some oil down the center hole and let it sit. It should not go through. The viscosity is obviously not a match for hot oil so maybe some other oil that is thinner at room temperature is better for such a test.

Great suggestion

 

[ZeeOSix]

Lastly, I think the valve can be tested without cutting open the filter. Simply pour some oil down the center hole and let it sit. It should not go through. The viscosity is obviously not a match for hot oil so maybe some other oil that is thinner at room temperature is better for such a test.

The "valve" or the leaf spring to end cap seal? If the poppet bypass valve is sealed well, then the leakage will be through the leaf spring to end cap sealing interface ... where the ruffles ridges live.

 

[CharlieBauer]

The "valve" or the leaf spring to end cap seal? If the poppet bypass valve is sealed well, then the leakage will be through the leaf spring to end cap sealing interface ... where the ruffles ridges live.

Yes the "leaf spring to end cap seal" is what I should have said.

 

[CharlieBauer]

Great suggestion

Right? We can all do this on Champ made / Fram filters before installing them.

In fact, any filter. The built in bypass in the WIX XP is known to stick and is shared with other filters eg Purolator Boss.

 

[Ronn]

The "valve" or the leaf spring to end cap seal? If the poppet bypass valve is sealed well, then the leakage will be through the leaf spring to end cap sealing interface ... where the ruffles ridges live.

He’s essentially suggesting the reverse of what OP did pouring oil from the other end.
If there is leakage. there should be drop in oil level from tube side via “gravity” as OP suggested.

 

[Fair enough]

Can you post a picture of light leaking from filter bypass ?
Thanks

Tired, maybe soon.
This filter is the size of a ford 820s, used mainly on bigger engines. Maybe they keep the mesh on those applications. I am not sure what the mesh looks like will cut a piece of the media and see.

 

[CharlieBauer]

Yeah, before most of the OG Ultras went to the new non-wire backed media I don't think the meida was as "pink and fuzzy" anymore. The one he got with wire backed media has a 178th day of 2024 build date, and that shows that not all Ultra models have swithed to the non-wire backed media. Maybe certain Ultra models will never go to non-wire backed media. Or maybe they are bringing back the wire backed Ultra ... but I doubt it.

It will be interesting to see a picture of the media and a pleat count on @Fair enough 's Apr 2024 XG2.

Ford Boss Me cut open an Jan 2023 XG2. Pink media so wire backed, holes not louvres and no felt seal for the leaf spring.

Whip City Wrencher cut open a May 2021 XG2 in "Perfect Seal" box, and it was pink media so wire backed, holes not louvres and a felt seal. 36 pleats.

 

[CharlieBauer]

So I just tested two XG2 both manufactured Plant A June 25th 2024 Shift 1.

Using a funnel, I poured M1 0w40 down the center hole.

Within minutes, both drained through and therefore FAILED.

I have another one arriving in a week. Let's see if it is a different date code. If so, I will test it. In the meantime, I will contact Fram.

Seriously though, shouldn't Fram be doing such a test as part of QA?

Shouldn't anyone doing ISO testing be doing such a test both before and after a filter is tested? It is such a simple check on filter integrity.