Fram Endurance Flashlight Test in canister

[Patman]

I’m personally not comfortable with it, others don’t mind. I don’t like paying a premium price for non premium build quality. Many Asian OEM filters are in the 50%@20 micron range and those engines can last many hundreds of thousands of miles. My guess is the leakers are in this range but no way to really know without ISO testing.

I’m not comfortable with it either but the cheapskate in me also hates the idea of having two oil filters that I spent about $30 (Canadian) on just sitting doing nothing.

 

[Jim Rogers]

So here is my question and forgive me if it has been asked and answered but I wonder what is the real world effects of having your oil slightly bypassing the media all of the time? In a healthy engine is this really a concern? Won’t the oil get filtered out enough to prevent any extra engine wear? One of the reasons I am curious is because I have two oil filters that I have been avoiding using since they might be leakers, but would it really harm anything to use those up for one interval? (And then moving forward I would stick with the CQP filters)

@Ronn has made exactly this argument in defense of Fram filters, arguing that "filtering delayed is not filtering denied."

I personally don't know if this is a reasonable argument or not, but if you look at the responses to that statement, you can see there are definitely those that disagree with this idea-- even to the point of tossing filters to avoid the risk.

I’m personally not comfortable with it, others don’t mind. I don’t like paying a premium price for non premium build quality. Many Asian OEM filters are in the 50%@20 micron range and those engines can last many hundreds of thousands of miles. My guess is the leakers are in this range but no way to really know without ISO testing.

This is my take as well. I'm sticking with non-leakers unless/until there is good data that leaking is not a significant problem, and that will likely require better testing results than we have at the moment.

I’m not comfortable with it either but the cheapskate in me also hates the idea of having two oil filters that I spent about $30 (Canadian) on just sitting doing nothing.

Totally get that, and I would tend to have the exact same inclination were I to be in your position. If you decide to use the potential leakers you have, you might be comforted by the fact that:

1) Per @ZeeOSix 's responses to me (just above), there may be a decent chance that the ones you have will not leak even if they are suspected to be prone to leaking.

2) If it does leak, you and @Ronn may be right that filtering delayed is not filtering denied.

3) Even if there is a leak, and even if some amount of filtering is denied, per what @Glenda W. just responded, it's possible that there still would be no significant long-term implications, especially if it was just 1-2 OCI's.

 

[Hatsuwr]

So here is my question and forgive me if it has been asked and answered but I wonder what is the real world effects of having your oil slightly bypassing the media all of the time? In a healthy engine is this really a concern? Won’t the oil get filtered out enough to prevent any extra engine wear? One of the reasons I am curious is because I have two oil filters that I have been avoiding using since they might be leakers, but would it really harm anything to use those up for one interval? (And then moving forward I would stick with the CQP filters)

Two things - newly introduced contaminants take longer to be filtered out, and contaminants previously blocked by the filter can become dislodged and then bypass the media entirely, and then need to be filtered again. All together it just means higher levels of particulate contamination in your oil which WILL increase the rate of wear on your engine. It's not going to kill it right away, or even quickly, but it will have an impact.

The magnitude of this impact is very hard to estimate, and would likely have a strong dependence on the filter media, bypassing percentage, engine construction, oil type, operating conditions, and more. Maybe it's something that would be noticeable in the normal useful life of the engine, maybe not.

But considering how easy it is to make a filter that doesn't leak like this, I have no confidence in a brand that has this issue.


Regarding your filters, I wouldn't be overly concerned about using them, especially on a normal FCI, but I probably wouldn't myself. Maybe save them for when you have a shorter FCI like after having the engine opened for work or if using some sort of engine cleaning product.

 

[ZeeOSix]

@Ronn has made exactly this argument in defense of Fram filters, arguing that "filtering delayed is not filtering denied."

If worried or concerned about leaking 10-15% of the oil past the media, then this is the way to go with a leaky leaf spring filter ... That way you'd at least have the same resulting efficiency as something like a Boss at 99% at 40u.

 

[4WD]

From what I've seen, not even close to the rippled leaf springs on metal end cap models. Pretty much every filter with metal end caps that has a rippled up leaf spring shows the potential leak issue. Not every fiber end cap filter shows the same level of that issue IMO.

Here is an example of a less than perfect spring (not the worst) that did not show light past the seal on this XG …
Sad part is a sister filter was cut and did not have the seal …

 

[tolian21]

How many tests so far been done with flashlight for endurance? Wonder if its consistent or was a bad batch

 

[Glenda W.]

How many tests so far been done with flashlight for endurance? Wonder if its consistent or was a bad batch

Many now. More leakers than not unfortunately.

 

[EvoMan]

the cheapskate in me also hates the idea of having two oil filters just sitting doing nothing.

You could always do a C&P on them…..you know……for science.

 

[tolian21]

Many now. More leakers than not unfortunately.

Has anyone contacted Fram with pictures ?

 

[Glenda W.]

Has anyone contacted Fram with pictures ?

I emailed Fram, no response. Someone else emailed Champ and I believe got a canned efficiency response.

 

[tolian21]

I emailed Fram, no response. Someone else emailed Champ and I believe got a canned efficiency response.

Its sad, there is really no more good oil filter one can buy. What about Fram Ultra bypass flashlight test, same thing?

 

[Glenda W.]

Its sad, there is really no more good oil filter one can buy. What about Fram Ultra bypass flashlight test, same thing?

Same. All First Brand filter brands seem to have been affected. My guess is worn stamping equipment and poor QC.

Most have settled on PG made filters. Currently superior quality.

 

[4WD]

Its sad, there is really no more good oil filter one can buy. What about Fram Ultra bypass flashlight test, same thing?

As I stated in 905 - when they have the seal and that’s an unknown …
Also would not run that XG10575 past 10k personally - it’s just weak paper with a coating now …

 

[ZeeOSix]

Here is an example of a less than perfect spring (not the worst) that did not show light past the seal on this XG …
Sad part is a sister filter was cut and did not have the seal …

View attachment 255980

View attachment 255981

My quote from post 895 was specifically talking about fiber end cap filters. The Ultra you're showing has the fiber sealing gasket for the leaf spring, which helped the leaf spring seal. That OG leaf spring looks a bit more ratty than most OG leaf springs. What was the date code on that one?

 

[ZeeOSix]

As I stated in 905 - when they have the seal and that’s an unknown …

No more leaf spring sealing fiber ring on any currently made filters on the market with metal end caps. If a filter with fiber end caps is made right then the fiber end caps become the fiber seal for the leaf spring and ADBV.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Its sad, there is really no more good oil filter one can buy. What about Fram Ultra bypass flashlight test, same thing?

It's not the bypass valve that has the light leak. It's the leaf spring to end cap "seal".

 

[4WD]

No more leaf spring sealing fiber ring on any currently made filters on the market with metal end caps. If a filter with fiber end caps is made right then the fiber end caps become the fiber seal for the leaf spring and ADBV.

April 24

 

[Mewbs]

Same. All First Brand filter brands seem to have been affected. My guess is worn stamping equipment and poor QC.

Most have settled on PG made filters. Currently superior quality.

If you read up on First Brands on other automotive forums and communities, people seem to be aware anything they touch becomes trash overtime. Unfortunately seeing Fram/Champ downfall is just one of the recent casualties. Its likely all the design original engineering staff prior to acquisition has left for greener pastures and who ever runs the office only care pumping as much volume disregarding basic quality control standards.

AFI/PGi filters are always good looking because they have their roots in actual OEM filter manufacturing. IIRC they started out as a Hyundai Mobis joint venture and later spun off as VAFI/CAFI. They still make OEM filters along with their aftermarket line private labeling.

 

[Fair enough]

@Ronn has made exactly this argument in defense of Fram filters, arguing that "filtering delayed is not filtering denied."

I personally don't know if this is a reasonable argument or not, but if you look at the responses to that statement, you can see there are definitely those that disagree with this idea-- even to the point of tossing filters to avoid the risk.




This is my take as well. I'm sticking with non-leakers unless/until there is good data that leaking is not a significant problem, and that will likely require better testing results than we have at the moment.




Totally get that, and I would tend to have the exact same inclination were I to be in your position. If you decide to use the potential leakers you have, you might be comforted by the fact that:

1) Per @ZeeOSix 's responses to me (just above), there may be a decent chance that the ones you have will not leak even if they are suspected to be prone to leaking.

2) If it does leak, you and @Ronn may be right that filtering delayed is not filtering denied.

3) Even if there is a leak, and even if some amount of filtering is denied, per what @Glenda W. just responded, it's possible that there still would be no significant long-term implications, especially if it was just 1-2 OCI's.

Clearly if 10% leaks into the 90% filtered stream on one pass, the unfiltered oil circulating will be 1% into 99% filtered next pass, and then 0.1% and 99.9% filtered oil on the next circulation. If circulations are 3 per minute, how much dirt is manufactured or ingested from the air in one minute into the total amount of oil? Lets have it in milligrams. Maybe it has to be micrograms. Maybe less. All wont be harmful, divide total by 2 to err favoring harmful particles. Particles dispersed in 5 quarts of oil. Seems like the long term filtration will be excellent even with the media with light spots. As long as the particle intrusion is low and realistic.

Its sad, there is really no more good oil filter one can buy. What about Fram Ultra bypass flashlight test, same thing?

Purolator One or Boss if desire a USA made. 99%@20 for the One, and 99+%@25 for Boss. I got one of each kind under $10 on discount thru Amazon. Fresh dates, one was put on a car this week. Maybe the Boss was $11 but don’t think so. They run sales sporadically.

 

[Glenda W.]

If you read up on First Brands on other automotive forums and communities, people seem to be aware anything they touch becomes trash overtime. Unfortunately seeing Fram/Champ downfall is just one of the recent casualties. Its likely all the design original engineering staff prior to acquisition has left for greener pastures and who ever runs the office only care pumping as much volume disregarding basic quality control standards.

AFI/PGi filters are always good looking because they have their roots in actual OEM filter manufacturing. IIRC they started out as a Hyundai Mobis joint venture and later spun off as VAFI/CAFI. They still make OEM filters along with their aftermarket line private labeling.

I have a feeling your correct about the OEM roots. Also may explain the connection with Pentius(GM/Deawoo).