Fram Cartridge Failure
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Just a random thought. I recently did an oil change on a 2011 Lexus IS250. The OEM Toyota cartridge has no end caps, resin, or seals. The media just gets pressed between the two halves of the housing. Do we know for sure that the end cap did not somehow stick to the housing and end up torn when breaking it loose?
Originally Posted By: DBMaster
Just a random thought. I recently did an oil change on a 2011 Lexus IS250. The OEM Toyota cartridge has no end caps, resin, or seals. The media just gets pressed between the two halves of the housing. Do we know for sure that the end cap did not somehow stick to the housing and end up torn when breaking it loose?
Definitely a possibility.
Just a random thought. I recently did an oil change on a 2011 Lexus IS250. The OEM Toyota cartridge has no end caps, resin, or seals. The media just gets pressed between the two halves of the housing. Do we know for sure that the end cap did not somehow stick to the housing and end up torn when breaking it loose?
Definitely a possibility.
Originally Posted By: Motorking
Really? The owner would get reimbursed for the filter and shipping and quite possibly more than that. Without the date code it is very difficult to know what factory this came from and without engineering analysis the failure mode is difficult to draw a conclusion on from foggy internet pictures. We do care that this occurred and want to prevent it from happening again. The last guy who took the time to send me a filter got a case of Ultras for his time.
This is how a company *should* respond! And Motorkings statement about free ultras makes we want to send a failed filter in
Really? The owner would get reimbursed for the filter and shipping and quite possibly more than that. Without the date code it is very difficult to know what factory this came from and without engineering analysis the failure mode is difficult to draw a conclusion on from foggy internet pictures. We do care that this occurred and want to prevent it from happening again. The last guy who took the time to send me a filter got a case of Ultras for his time.
This is how a company *should* respond! And Motorkings statement about free ultras makes we want to send a failed filter in
Originally Posted By: Andy636
That's an interested approach...but gluing the media to the endcap is kinda risky IMHO.
I like the way Mann does it; they inject the resin in such a way that it bonds the plates and forms the endcaps at the same time.
I like!
Cartridge filters should have no need for endcaps with the right design... toyota got it right.
That's an interested approach...but gluing the media to the endcap is kinda risky IMHO.
I like the way Mann does it; they inject the resin in such a way that it bonds the plates and forms the endcaps at the same time.
I like!
Cartridge filters should have no need for endcaps with the right design... toyota got it right.
As the topic CH9999 is for a Hyundai Entourage the composite/nylon type endcap has been spec. Also there is what I'll call an inner/center swivel ring at both ends of the Fram cartridge that would prevent the endcaps from sticking to the housing at either end. The extended swivel rings also contain an internal oring gasket which helps clip the cartridge to the removable upper housing section. Thus in my observation and experience I'd say it's very unlikely that the topic failure was caused by the endcap sticking to housing.
Being fairly familiar with this cartridge design in Hyundai/Kia and using both oe and a similar design Wix/Napa Gold shown below I've never had an issue including the media separating from the endcap, not to mention the OP's complete separtion. And then there's the very similar Fram Ultra cartridge failure.
Similar to the Puro spin on tears, with all the other choices including oem not showing the OP's issue easier just to use something else. At least for me.
Also the composite/nylon type endcap in my observation seem to be very common, perhaps the most common design. A Google image search of even Mann cartridges mentioned appears to show that they use composite and even metal endcaps in some cartridge applications.
NG 7250 with ~5k miles.
Being fairly familiar with this cartridge design in Hyundai/Kia and using both oe and a similar design Wix/Napa Gold shown below I've never had an issue including the media separating from the endcap, not to mention the OP's complete separtion. And then there's the very similar Fram Ultra cartridge failure.
Similar to the Puro spin on tears, with all the other choices including oem not showing the OP's issue easier just to use something else. At least for me.
Also the composite/nylon type endcap in my observation seem to be very common, perhaps the most common design. A Google image search of even Mann cartridges mentioned appears to show that they use composite and even metal endcaps in some cartridge applications.
NG 7250 with ~5k miles.
Originally Posted By: SilverC6
These things are disposable filters.
If they didn't wear out, you wouldn't have to replace them regularly.
Wrong.
A good filter won't fail - even when SO plugged so you can't see any pleats! (which I HAVE seen in the past)
These things are disposable filters.
If they didn't wear out, you wouldn't have to replace them regularly.
Wrong.
A good filter won't fail - even when SO plugged so you can't see any pleats! (which I HAVE seen in the past)
Originally Posted By: HosteenJorje
I am yet to find a Toyota(Denso) or Denso oil filter that failed. They all look good after being in service six months. I have to admit that we don't drive that many miles anymore.
I've used a dozen or so of the much-maligned Thai-made Denso filter element in my Corolla. None have failed in any way. They may only be rock catchers, but for me, they catch rocks reliably in OCI's up to almost 10K miles.
I don't have anything good or bad to say about Fram, because I don't use them. I do appreciate MotorKing being involved in BITOG.
Purolator did engage me about my filter failure, and made it worth my time. However the end result was another torn filter, and some fancy talking about their tests and how bad my engine was, and overloaded the filter was... they contradicted themselves and never explained... and I did a UOA that proved them wrong, very wrong. My next oil change was pristine. I've put, what, 40K more miles since then, and still no problems with that engine. So, no more Purolator for me. But at least, they did try.
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3427704/1
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3488624/1
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3921169
I never used the filter elements Purolator sent for my Corolla, because the gummy sealing ends were not flat. I sent them feedback on that as well, complete with dial caliper measurements down to the thousandths, comparing to my Denso filters, never heard anything back. That place has problems.
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3507579/Purolator_L16311
I am yet to find a Toyota(Denso) or Denso oil filter that failed. They all look good after being in service six months. I have to admit that we don't drive that many miles anymore.
I've used a dozen or so of the much-maligned Thai-made Denso filter element in my Corolla. None have failed in any way. They may only be rock catchers, but for me, they catch rocks reliably in OCI's up to almost 10K miles.
I don't have anything good or bad to say about Fram, because I don't use them. I do appreciate MotorKing being involved in BITOG.
Purolator did engage me about my filter failure, and made it worth my time. However the end result was another torn filter, and some fancy talking about their tests and how bad my engine was, and overloaded the filter was... they contradicted themselves and never explained... and I did a UOA that proved them wrong, very wrong. My next oil change was pristine. I've put, what, 40K more miles since then, and still no problems with that engine. So, no more Purolator for me. But at least, they did try.
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3427704/1
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3488624/1
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3921169
I never used the filter elements Purolator sent for my Corolla, because the gummy sealing ends were not flat. I sent them feedback on that as well, complete with dial caliper measurements down to the thousandths, comparing to my Denso filters, never heard anything back. That place has problems.
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3507579/Purolator_L16311
Originally Posted By: PimTac
Since this thread is from 2015, was there any word or action back from Fram? I'm sure most here would like to know the end result. We are fortunate to have Motorking as a member with his direct knowledge and experience of filters.
Action yes. I understand they moved the equipment for cartridge manufacturing back to the Fram facility to better oversee quality.
Since this thread is from 2015, was there any word or action back from Fram? I'm sure most here would like to know the end result. We are fortunate to have Motorking as a member with his direct knowledge and experience of filters.
Action yes. I understand they moved the equipment for cartridge manufacturing back to the Fram facility to better oversee quality.
Perhaps, if you oil the end caps on the Fram cartridge before you install it, it doesn't break. Breakage is probably due to twisting under pressure during installation. During torquing, if the bottom end cap becomes stationary under pressure and you twist the top end cap, something is going to break. Oiling it will help it rotate without twisting.
Originally Posted By: PimTac
I've never heard of anyone oiling the end caps of a filter to help it fit into the canister. If it's that tight it is most likely not exactly the same spec as the OEM. Using OEM filters would eliminate that possibility.
I didn't say to help it fit. Read my post carefully. It's for decreasing the shear stress caused by possible twisting. It will help with any cartridge, not just with Fram.
You oil the O-ring for oil-filter-cartridge installations but oiling the end caps is also a good idea to say the least. I'm pretty sure that none of these failures would happen if they oiled the end caps. They are obviously caused by twisting.
I've never heard of anyone oiling the end caps of a filter to help it fit into the canister. If it's that tight it is most likely not exactly the same spec as the OEM. Using OEM filters would eliminate that possibility.
I didn't say to help it fit. Read my post carefully. It's for decreasing the shear stress caused by possible twisting. It will help with any cartridge, not just with Fram.
You oil the O-ring for oil-filter-cartridge installations but oiling the end caps is also a good idea to say the least. I'm pretty sure that none of these failures would happen if they oiled the end caps. They are obviously caused by twisting.
I'm scratching my head on that one. The end caps are not made to seal. A gasket would do that. Oiling the spin on filter gaskets helps to not only seal against the mounting plate but to help with removal.
I'm not going to go back and forth with you here. This thread wore out long ago.
I'm not going to go back and forth with you here. This thread wore out long ago.
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: PimTac
I've never heard of anyone oiling the end caps of a filter to help it fit into the canister. If it's that tight it is most likely not exactly the same spec as the OEM. Using OEM filters would eliminate that possibility.
I didn't say to help it fit. Read my post carefully. It's for decreasing the shear stress caused by possible twisting. It will help with any cartridge, not just with Fram.
You oil the O-ring for oil-filter-cartridge installations but oiling the end caps is also a good idea to say the least. I'm pretty sure that none of these failures would happen if they oiled the end caps. They are obviously caused by twisting.
I can't see it hurting anything, it might help.
Originally Posted By: PimTac
I've never heard of anyone oiling the end caps of a filter to help it fit into the canister. If it's that tight it is most likely not exactly the same spec as the OEM. Using OEM filters would eliminate that possibility.
I didn't say to help it fit. Read my post carefully. It's for decreasing the shear stress caused by possible twisting. It will help with any cartridge, not just with Fram.
You oil the O-ring for oil-filter-cartridge installations but oiling the end caps is also a good idea to say the least. I'm pretty sure that none of these failures would happen if they oiled the end caps. They are obviously caused by twisting.
I can't see it hurting anything, it might help.
Originally Posted By: PimTac
I'm scratching my head on that one. The end caps are not made to seal. A gasket would do that. Oiling the spin on filter gaskets helps to not only seal against the mounting plate but to help with removal.
I'm not going to go back and forth with you here. This thread wore out long ago.
Why are you having such a hard time understanding this? You don't seem to be mechanically inclined but yet keep arguing about it.
Friction force depends on two variables: It's the normal force (force perpendicular to the friction surface) multiplied by the coefficient of friction. What is happening here is that when you torque the oil-filter cap, the normal force on the end caps keeps increasing. This keeps increasing the friction force between the end caps and the surfaces they rest on. At one point the friction force exceeds the lateral force that rotates the end caps when you rotate the oil-filter cap. When this happens, the bottom end cap becomes static against the bottom surface and the top end cap becomes static against the top surface. When you further torque the oil-filter cap, this will result in the twisting of the cartridge, which will induce shear forces on the glue joints and the glue joints will eventually shear. However, you can prevent this by reducing the friction force, which you can achieve by reducing the coefficient of friction by oiling the end caps.
I'm scratching my head on that one. The end caps are not made to seal. A gasket would do that. Oiling the spin on filter gaskets helps to not only seal against the mounting plate but to help with removal.
I'm not going to go back and forth with you here. This thread wore out long ago.
Why are you having such a hard time understanding this? You don't seem to be mechanically inclined but yet keep arguing about it.
Friction force depends on two variables: It's the normal force (force perpendicular to the friction surface) multiplied by the coefficient of friction. What is happening here is that when you torque the oil-filter cap, the normal force on the end caps keeps increasing. This keeps increasing the friction force between the end caps and the surfaces they rest on. At one point the friction force exceeds the lateral force that rotates the end caps when you rotate the oil-filter cap. When this happens, the bottom end cap becomes static against the bottom surface and the top end cap becomes static against the top surface. When you further torque the oil-filter cap, this will result in the twisting of the cartridge, which will induce shear forces on the glue joints and the glue joints will eventually shear. However, you can prevent this by reducing the friction force, which you can achieve by reducing the coefficient of friction by oiling the end caps.
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: PimTac
I'm scratching my head on that one. The end caps are not made to seal. A gasket would do that. Oiling the spin on filter gaskets helps to not only seal against the mounting plate but to help with removal.
I'm not going to go back and forth with you here. This thread wore out long ago.
Why are you having such a hard time understanding this? You don't seem to be mechanically inclined but yet keep arguing about it.
Friction force depends on two variables: It's the normal force (force perpendicular to the friction surface) multiplied by the coefficient of friction. What is happening here is that when you torque the oil-filter cap, the normal force on the end caps keeps increasing. This keeps increasing the friction force between the end caps and the surfaces they rest. At one point friction force exceeds the lateral force that rotates the end caps when you rotate the filter cap. When this happens, the bottom end cap becomes static against the bottom surface and the top end cap becomes static against the top surface. When you further torque the oil-filter cap, this will result in the twisting of the cartridge, which will induce shear forces on the glue joints and the glue joints will eventually shear. However, you can prevent this by reducing the friction force, which you can achieve by reducing the coefficient of friction by oiling the end caps.
Giving this a bit more thought I think you're onto something here. I lube two O-rings on my Pentastar Cartridge filter. The smaller O ring at the base of the filter and the larger one on the filter housing cap. I think I might start lubing the top and bottom of the cartridge itself where the media meets the plastic cartridge as well. Even though the filter housing has residual oil along the sides, lubing where the media connects to the plastic will help to eliminate the possibility of any twisting of the media when screwing the cap on.
Originally Posted By: PimTac
I'm scratching my head on that one. The end caps are not made to seal. A gasket would do that. Oiling the spin on filter gaskets helps to not only seal against the mounting plate but to help with removal.
I'm not going to go back and forth with you here. This thread wore out long ago.
Why are you having such a hard time understanding this? You don't seem to be mechanically inclined but yet keep arguing about it.
Friction force depends on two variables: It's the normal force (force perpendicular to the friction surface) multiplied by the coefficient of friction. What is happening here is that when you torque the oil-filter cap, the normal force on the end caps keeps increasing. This keeps increasing the friction force between the end caps and the surfaces they rest. At one point friction force exceeds the lateral force that rotates the end caps when you rotate the filter cap. When this happens, the bottom end cap becomes static against the bottom surface and the top end cap becomes static against the top surface. When you further torque the oil-filter cap, this will result in the twisting of the cartridge, which will induce shear forces on the glue joints and the glue joints will eventually shear. However, you can prevent this by reducing the friction force, which you can achieve by reducing the coefficient of friction by oiling the end caps.
Giving this a bit more thought I think you're onto something here. I lube two O-rings on my Pentastar Cartridge filter. The smaller O ring at the base of the filter and the larger one on the filter housing cap. I think I might start lubing the top and bottom of the cartridge itself where the media meets the plastic cartridge as well. Even though the filter housing has residual oil along the sides, lubing where the media connects to the plastic will help to eliminate the possibility of any twisting of the media when screwing the cap on.
I'll agree that lubing the end of the cartridge might slightly reduce torsional stress on it during installation. If you haven't wiped the old oil off the contacting surfaces of the housing and cap, there might be sufficient oil on the interface anyway. Axial force on the cartridge, therefore torque on it due to friction, is limited by the spring in the cap, at least on my Toyota.
Whether stresses due to that friction is actually significant compared to stresses due to oil pressure differential during operation, is a whole 'nother question.
Whether stresses due to that friction is actually significant compared to stresses due to oil pressure differential during operation, is a whole 'nother question.
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