Ford presentation on the 1,000–1,200 ppm phosphorus requirement for heavy-duty diesel-engine oils

[Gokhan]

I came across this presentation by Ford on why they require 1,000–1,200 ppm phosphorus for heavy-duty diesel-engine oils.

Presentation by Ford on why they require 1,000–1,200 ppm phosphorus for heavy-duty diesel-engine oils—ASTM Test-Monitoring Center (PDF file)

 

[92saturnsl2]

Wasn't the phosphorus limit pegged to oils that had a dual rating, like CK-4/SN? I thought there were some CK-4 oils available that had the 1,000-1,200 ppm phosphorus.

I'm guessing Ford has redesigned some parts between 2017 (when the paper was published) and today-- because clearly these oils are not going away, and there's going to be tons of owners that buy whatever diesel oil brand favorite of theirs that is on the shelf, paying little attention to WSS-xxxxxx Ford spec.

Why was Ford having these issues while Cummins and GM/Isuzu motors soldiered on with CK-4?

 

[Gokhan]

Wasn't the phosphorus limit pegged to oils that had a dual rating, like CK-4/SN? I thought there were some CK-4 oils available that had the 1,000-1,200 ppm.

For CJ-4, it's 0–1,200 ppm with or without CJ-4/SX dual rating.
For CK-4 and FA-4, it's 0–1,200 ppm without and 0–800 ppm with CK-4/SX or FA-4/SX dual rating.

 

[Jetronic]

Wasn't the phosphorus limit pegged to oils that had a dual rating, like CK-4/SN? I thought there were some CK-4 oils available that had the 1,000-1,200 ppm phosphorus.

I'm guessing Ford has redesigned some parts between 2017 (when the paper was published) and today-- because clearly these oils are not going away, and there's going to be tons of owners that buy whatever diesel oil brand favorite of theirs that is on the shelf, paying little attention to WSS-xxxxxx Ford spec.

Why was Ford having these issues while Cummins and GM/Isuzu motors soldiered on with CK-4?

Ford will come up with it's own specification, which will have a lower limit for phosphorous, according to the presentation. So you want warranty, you use an oil of the correct specification.

Do the cummins and GM/isuzu engines specify 10W-30? the issue seems to be there?

 

[wpod]

My opinion on todays car designers and engineers is even though they have done remarkable things , I wish their significant other would bring them an incurable Venereal disease. Then they spend of eternity in Hades working on the vehicles they designed.

 

[Tdog02]

My opinion on todays car designers and engineers is even though they have done remarkable things , I wish their significant other would bring them an incurable Venereal disease. Then they spend of eternity in Hades working on the vehicles they designed.

Don't sugar coat it, tell us how you really feel! (made my day and made me laugh... thanks)

 

[tnt_motorsports]

Ford will come up with it's own specification, which will have a lower limit for phosphorous, according to the presentation. So you want warranty, you use an oil of the correct specification.

Do the cummins and GM/isuzu engines specify 10W-30? the issue seems to be there?

The 5th Gen Rams (2019+) specify 5w40 or 10w30. Many believe this is because of the hydraulic lifters.

Just my $0.02

 

[FreedomOne]

6.6 Dmax is still 15w40 or 5w40. Little Dmax is 20w Dexos.

 

[nthach]

The 5th Gen Rams (2019+) specify 5w40 or 10w30. Many believe this is because of the hydraulic lifters.

Just my $0.02

They’re also going off Cummins recommendations - the Ram’s 6.7CTD is basically the same engine as the ISB/B6.7 used in countless on-road applications. 15W-40 won’t hurt, Cummins would other issue a notice to their OE clients, company shops and fleet operators not to use it otherwise.

 

[toyotadude]

They’re also going off Cummins recommendations - the Ram’s 6.7CTD is basically the same engine as the ISB/B6.7 used in countless on-road applications. 15W-40 won’t hurt, Cummins would other issue a notice to their OE clients, company shops and fleet operators not to use it otherwise.

I'm pretty sure all non Ram 6.7's still use the flat tappet adjustable lash valve train, so 15-40 would be fine for them, but on the 19+ ram engines with the hydraulic lifters 15-40 can not be used and a tsb was issued because of failures from the wrong oil

 

[kschachn]

I'm pretty sure all non Ram 6.7's still use the flat tappet adjustable lash valve train, so 15-40 would be fine for them, but on the 19+ ram engines with the hydraulic lifters 15-40 can not be used and a tsb was issued because of failures from the wrong oil

View attachment 128498

Which is odd because it focuses on the grade when deposits are the problem. I guess it is because there aren't any synthetic 15W-40 oils, at least none that carry the required specification. But the way that thing is written it appears at first to be some sort of problem with a specific winter rating which isn't really the case.

 

[Snagglefoot]

Back to Ford. Here is a list from a Ford site listing approved motor oils meeting Ford WSS-M2C171-F1. Many of these oils are CK-4 with that "little extra" that Ford wants. The document is dated as 2022.

https://www.fcsdchemicalsandlubricants.com/additionalinfo/dieseloilsWSSM2C171F1.pdf

 

[bismic1]

For CJ-4, it's 0–1,200 ppm with or without CJ-4/SX dual rating.
For CK-4 and FA-4, it's 0–1,200 ppm without and 0–800 ppm with CK-4/SX or FA-4/SX dual rating.

Sorry but I have trouble following the second statement.

I read your statement to say that 0-1200 ppm is OK if the CK oil does not have the SX rating.
Then you say 0-800 is OK if it DOES have the SX rating.

That doesn't match the Ford presentation linked above (talking about minimum P levels) - at least in my way of thinking. Could you explain a bit more?

 

[Jetronic]

If it's rated for gasoline engines, it has to stick to the gasoline limits, there used to be an exception.