Ford knew Focus, Fiesta models had flawed transmission, sold them anyway

[kam327]

Originally Posted by nthach
I've driven a PowerShift equipped Focus once and it did shift roughly, like a Honda but more jerky. I've seen posts here of people getting multiple PCM flashes and internal parts replaced to no avail. And Getrag can make a good tranny if you're willing to pay - their manuals are considered solid, their work with Porsche and Nissan DSGs seems to be good.

The funny part is that VW was able to tame the DSG/AMG design and make its operation almost transparent to the driver and passenger and ZF successfully launched a heavy-duty AMG for tour buses and big rigs. Honda even has their own AMG out right now. I'm guessing this is classic Ford cost-cutting at work coming back to bite them.


Those are wet clutch designs for high performance. Ford / Getrag chose a dry clutch design for max fuel efficiency. Different animal.

 

[WylieCoyote]

I bought a 2012 Focus Titanium auto hatch BEFORE I had done any research or joined the Focus forums. What an eye-opener. At around 4,000 miles, the transmission suddenly refused to shift up beyond 3rd gear after slowing and accelerating in traffic on a 50mph road. I had to switch it to manual mode and force it to upshift. It was a one-time issue, but enough to make me wary of my purchase, especially after reading nightmare after nightmare on the Focus forums. Strangely, it wasn't displaying any of the typical symptoms everyone else was seeing (jerking, lurching, sluggishness, etc.). I dumped it for a Focus ST before it could become a headache. It's a shame.....it was a really nice car otherwise. Too bad they saddled it with a lemon transmission.

 

[UncleDave]

On top of knowingly selling a faulty product, Ford took a 5.9 billion dollar loan.

3.5B is still outstanding.

The purpose of this loan was to build fuel-efficient cars in the US.

What did we get for our money?

The Fusion Energi?


UD

 

[DoubleWasp]

Yeah, this was a total TL;DR, but I decided to post it for relevance anyway.

Apologies for quoting the whole article, but the site seemed to be ad-loaded, so thought I'd make it easier.

Even though I got the big finger from Ford on my Triton 5.4 3V truck, I don't consider this "Ford bashing" so much as market bashing. I think pretty much everyone is guilty of putting a "science project on the street".

Ford does have a very solid history of this, however. Between the Ford Explorer, their awful 90s transmissions, the Powerstroke 6.0, the Triton 5.4 3V, and the CP4 pump issues, Ford has lived pretty much perpetually mired in customer service Hades for greater than 2 solid decades.

In the end, it's not the problems that have me backing off of Ford. It's the repetition of denying the issues even exist and dealership Gaslighting, combined with their advanced knowledge they were going to be shafting the consumer.

Then again, that's becoming ridiculously more common as well.

 

[MNgopher]

Originally Posted by UncleDave
On top of knowingly selling a faulty product, Ford took a 5.9 billion dollar loan.

3.5B is still outstanding.

The purpose of this loan was to build fuel-efficient cars in the US.

What did we get for our money?

The Fusion Energi?


UD







You can complain about it, but the facts are Ford is complying with the terms of the loan, and has until 2022 to pay it back in full, and to date it is on schedule. Portions of this money went to development of Ecoboost engines, the aluminum body on the F150, etc... which to be fair have all resulted in fuel economy gains.

 

[Smokescreen]

I found it sad that Ford Europe and GM Europe always seemed to get the good versions of cars that we can't get at all or that we get a dumbed down version that is pathetic and weak.

Once again this was the case. A good friend of mine die hard Ford customer, He only buys Ford, restores old Ford trucks bought a Focus with the goofy transmission. It pained him when it had issues right out of the box. I drove it one time and I was as confused as to what was happening as the transmission was in finding a gear to stay in. He traded it back in to the dealership and is now looking at a RAV4 hybrid. Another friend of mine had the Fiesta and the same thing. He had more patience though but after 3 replacement transmissions, he gave up and bought a used Honda Civic.

Well at least Ford ended things on a high note as they won't be offering any more cars as of 2020 in North America other than the Mustang and the Focus Active. Now we are left with even less choices among the already anemic offerings.

Welcome to Ford North America...A Truck and SUV Motor Company.

 

[jeepman3071]

Originally Posted by Trav
Originally Posted by Hakkinen
My girlfriend bought one on these recently (without my consent, though I must admit I knew nothing of the issue at the time).


A girlfriend that does something without your consent? Time to cut her loose, how dare she do something like that.

 

[bdcardinal]

Originally Posted by jeepman3071
Originally Posted by Trav
Originally Posted by Hakkinen
My girlfriend bought one on these recently (without my consent, though I must admit I knew nothing of the issue at the time).


A girlfriend that does something without your consent? Time to cut her loose, how dare she do something like that.

I think this could be comment of the decade material.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by CJWinWA
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by CJWinWA
Toyota fixed their rusted frames after a settlement with Dana the company that produced the frames. Ford also received a settlement from Dana for rusted frames, but pocketed the money rather than fixing customer vehicles.

That same Toyota does not want to acknowledge issues on Aisin 8 speed transmission?
They send letters to customers that literally says: throughout lifetime of an vehicle owner might experience rough shifting and whining sound.
My friend has 2018 Highlander and I think he was in dealership 30+ times, and still drives POS transmission.
Sometimes not acknowledging issue is part of strategy. FORD probably thought that by not acknowledging issue they would in the long run come out better. Toyota thought same, not acknowledging problem would in long run be better as there would not be damaging articles etc.


The transmission is fine, people don't like the programming of it that tries to keep engine RPM low for better MPG. It is very different than the transmissions of the past, but it works.




Actually there were numerous failures on Aisin 8 speed. I drove it brand new a lot, yes, programming is designed to chase better MPG, BUT we are talking about complete failures at 2-3k, and numerous that develop far different shifting soon after they are driven off the lot. Like FORD, Toyota is not acknowledging issue and regardless of numerous updates to programming, still cannot resolve it. Also, if it is programming it would be resolvable by now. Same transmission is doing fine on FWD models and VW, BMW (transverse engine models ) etc. Sometimes, not acknowledging issue is part of strategy.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by wag123
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by CJWinWA
Toyota fixed their rusted frames after a settlement with Dana the company that produced the frames. Ford also received a settlement from Dana for rusted frames, but pocketed the money rather than fixing customer vehicles.

That same Toyota does not want to acknowledge issues on Aisin 8 speed transmission?
They send letters to customers that literally says: throughout lifetime of an vehicle owner might experience rough shifting and whining sound.
My friend has 2018 Highlander and I think he was in dealership 30+ times, and still drives POS transmission.
Sometimes not acknowledging issue is part of strategy. FORD probably thought that by not acknowledging issue they would in the long run come out better. Toyota thought same, not acknowledging problem would in long run be better as there would not be damaging articles etc.
There you go again edy. This thread is about Ford's not taking responsibility for known defects. You don't even own a Toyota with the 8-speed. Stop with the Toyota bashing already.

I said before, there is a reason why you were in the business.
Are you saying Toyota did not/does not have issues with 8 speed and does not want to acknowledge issue, same like FORD? That transmission is in the cars for A LONG time. It is impossible that Toyota did not know about it, but same like FORD, they tried (and did it, partly bcs average Toyota owner does not look too far ahead) and succeeded to get away with it.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by Smokescreen
I found it sad that Ford Europe and GM Europe always seemed to get the good versions of cars that we can't get at all or that we get a dumbed down version that is pathetic and weak.

Once again this was the case. A good friend of mine die hard Ford customer, He only buys Ford, restores old Ford trucks bought a Focus with the goofy transmission. It pained him when it had issues right out of the box. I drove it one time and I was as confused as to what was happening as the transmission was in finding a gear to stay in. He traded it back in to the dealership and is now looking at a RAV4 hybrid. Another friend of mine had the Fiesta and the same thing. He had more patience though but after 3 replacement transmissions, he gave up and bought a used Honda Civic.

Well at least Ford ended things on a high note as they won't be offering any more cars as of 2020 in North America other than the Mustang and the Focus Active. Now we are left with even less choices among the already anemic offerings.

Welcome to Ford North America...A Truck and SUV Motor Company.

GM Europe tried American approach to developing/building cars. Now PSA owns OPEL, and SAAB does not exists.
FORD had different strategy. They were developing cars uniquely positioned for European market. They strated to transfer those vehicles to NA, but still watered down them.

 

[wag123]

Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by CJWinWA
The transmission is fine, people don't like the programming of it that tries to keep engine RPM low for better MPG. It is very different than the transmissions of the past, but it works.

Actually there were numerous failures on Aisin 8 speed. I drove it brand new a lot, yes, programming is designed to chase better MPG, BUT we are talking about complete failures at 2-3k, and numerous that develop far different shifting soon after they are driven off the lot. Like FORD, Toyota is not acknowledging issue and regardless of numerous updates to programming, still cannot resolve it. Also, if it is programming it would be resolvable by now. Same transmission is doing fine on FWD models and VW, BMW (transverse engine models ) etc. Sometimes, not acknowledging issue is part of strategy.

Actually, you are wrong. Toyota identified the internal mechanical problem with early 8-speeds that caused the failures (confined mostly to AWD vehicles) and fixed the problem by Dec 2017, they then replaced the transmissions affected by it, so they DID in-fact acknowledge the problem. The software issue that causes the harsh/erratic shifting is another problem that is still a work in progress. They have come with software updates to address the shifting issue, but there are still complaints about it. The root cause of the shifting problem seems to be a result of the fact that the transmission is programmed to skip gears when it shifts, sometimes as many as four gears depending on conditions, for improved fuel economy.
My take on this is... why even have a 8 or 9 or 10 or 11 speed automatic if it will be programmed to skip a bunch of these gears when it shifts? IMO this only increases complexity without much (if any) benefit.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Originally Posted by wag123
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by CJWinWA
The transmission is fine, people don't like the programming of it that tries to keep engine RPM low for better MPG. It is very different than the transmissions of the past, but it works.

Actually there were numerous failures on Aisin 8 speed. I drove it brand new a lot, yes, programming is designed to chase better MPG, BUT we are talking about complete failures at 2-3k, and numerous that develop far different shifting soon after they are driven off the lot. Like FORD, Toyota is not acknowledging issue and regardless of numerous updates to programming, still cannot resolve it. Also, if it is programming it would be resolvable by now. Same transmission is doing fine on FWD models and VW, BMW (transverse engine models ) etc. Sometimes, not acknowledging issue is part of strategy.

Actually, you are wrong. Toyota identified the internal mechanical problem with early 8-speeds that caused the failures (confined mostly to AWD vehicles) and fixed the problem by Dec 2017, they then replaced the transmissions affected by it, so they DID in-fact acknowledge the problem. The software issue that causes the harsh/erratic shifting is another problem that is still a work in progress. They have come with software updates to address the shifting issue, but there are still complaints about it. The root cause of the shifting problem seems to be a result of the fact that the transmission is programmed to skip gears when it shifts, sometimes as many as four gears depending on conditions, for improved fuel economy.
My take on this is... why even have a 8 or 9 or 10 or 11 speed automatic if it will be programmed to skip a bunch of these gears when it shifts? IMO this only increases complexity without much (if any) benefit.



Interesting. So it appears that the actual fix (not skipping gears) would have a negative impact on FE and that would be a problem from a competitive and a regulatory perspective.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by wag123
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by CJWinWA
The transmission is fine, people don't like the programming of it that tries to keep engine RPM low for better MPG. It is very different than the transmissions of the past, but it works.

Actually there were numerous failures on Aisin 8 speed. I drove it brand new a lot, yes, programming is designed to chase better MPG, BUT we are talking about complete failures at 2-3k, and numerous that develop far different shifting soon after they are driven off the lot. Like FORD, Toyota is not acknowledging issue and regardless of numerous updates to programming, still cannot resolve it. Also, if it is programming it would be resolvable by now. Same transmission is doing fine on FWD models and VW, BMW (transverse engine models ) etc. Sometimes, not acknowledging issue is part of strategy.

Actually, you are wrong. Toyota identified the internal mechanical problem with early 8-speeds that caused the failures (confined mostly to AWD vehicles) and fixed the problem by Dec 2017, they then replaced the transmissions affected by it, so they DID in-fact acknowledge the problem. The software issue that causes the harsh shifting is another problem that is still a work in progress. They have come with software updates to address the shifting issue, but there are still complaints about it. The root cause of the shifting problem seems to be a result of the fact that the transmission is programmed to skip gears when it shifts, sometimes as many as three gears depending on conditions, for improved fuel economy.
My take on this is... why even have a 8 or 9 or 10 or 11 speed automatic if it will be programmed to skip a bunch of these gears when it shifts? IMO this only increases complexity without much (if any) benefit.

It is indicative that no Toyota owner of Aisin 8 speed (and you are right, it is AWD models) agrees what is an issue. Everyone has its own version, and reason is that Toyota DID NOT acknowledge issue. Toyota never issued recall and it i impossible that they did not know about issue considering that transmissions were fail at 2-3k. Also, it is not true that they replaced transmissions. That depends how aggressive customer was and which dealership. My best man has still 2018 HL, with same problem, after visiting dealership 30+ times, having once vehicle for a month there, he still drives car with same transmission that still shifts like POS.
It is similar situation to FORD. Long term they thought they they could get away with it, same like FORD.
But, if you think acknowledging issue is: dear customer, your transmission will be POS for the rest of ownership, yeah, I guess you can say they acknowledge issue.
I personally, did not want to touch 2017+ Sienna particularly bcs of that transmission.

 

[benjy]

sad but true it seems as technology advances more problems happen! like the drug companies that market problematic drugs, a death or sometimes many is what it takes to stop manufacturing issues! as far as trannies, no stick no sale!!

 

[wag123]

Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
So it appears that the actual fix (not skipping gears) would have a negative impact on FE and that would be a problem from a competitive and a regulatory perspective.

IMO, you are correct. I think that their hands may be somewhat tied on this.
I believe that this could happen to ANY manufacturer who is chasing the very last MPG without having to resort to cylinder deactivation (and it's inherent problems).

 

[Rhymingmechanic]

Originally Posted by DoubleWasp


In the end, it's not the problems that have me backing off of Ford. It's the repetition of denying the issues even exist and dealership Gaslighting, combined with their advanced knowledge they were going to be shafting the consumer.


In addition to the gaslighting, the Ford quotes are stellar examples of corporate doublespeak!!

 

[wag123]

Originally Posted by edyvw
My best man has still 2018 HL, with same problem, after visiting dealership 30+ times, having once vehicle for a month there, he still drives car with same transmission that still shifts like POS.
I don't believe you. I think that you are blowing smoke due to the fact that you hate Toyota so much.
In view of the fact that there are lemon laws, nobody in their right mind would keep a new vehicle under these circumstances.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by wag123
Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
So it appears that the actual fix (not skipping gears) would have a negative impact on FE and that would be a problem from a competitive and a regulatory perspective.

IMO, you are correct. I think that their hands may be somewhat tied on this.
I believe that this could happen to ANY manufacturer who is chasing the very last MPG without having to resort to cylinder deactivation (and it's inherent problems).

All manufacturers are chasing MPG, to the last drop. The problem for FORD is large number of gas guzzlers and need to offset that by other vehicles and using various tricks to comply with CAFE.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by wag123
Originally Posted by edyvw
My best man has still 2018 HL, with same problem, after visiting dealership 30+ times, having once vehicle for a month there, he still drives car with same transmission that still shifts like POS.
I don't believe you. I think that you are blowing smoke due to the fact that you hate Toyota so much.
In view of the fact that there are lemon laws, nobody in their right mind would keep a new vehicle under these circumstances.

LOL, OK. Though, I saw a lot of onwers of Toyota that do not believe when something happens to their car.
My coworker still thinks that after changing two batteris on Lexus 200h (or whatever name is) is bulletproof car. Her reason? Toyota covered it, so it is reliable.
Edit: Bets thing about that HL? Toyota dealership as sign of "goodwill" offered trade in. I would not be surprised after trade they would tell him: well, you did not get good trade in bcs your transmission is bad.
As for lemon laws, yeah, he is chasing that, though, his case is nothing different from others.