Ford knew Focus, Fiesta models had flawed transmission, sold them anyway

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Here is a brief article explaining history of DCT.

https://drivemag.com/red-calipers/history-of-the-dual-clutch-transmission

My son's 2014 Jetta has one and when he first got it, it's normal operational behaviour took a lot to get use to.

I think that is because most of us Americans are used to the conventional operation and reliability of "slushbox" automatics.

Sergio Marchione (RIP) insisted that he was going to use the Dodge Dart to teach Americans about the advantages of DCTs. Many of the Dodge Dart reliability, and warranty claims were related directly or indirectly to the DCT. I have a late 2013 Dodge Dart with the Chrysler World Engine (2.0 litre - shared with Hyundai, and Mitsubishi) coupled to the Powertech 6 speed made by Hyundai. It seems to work flawlessly for a compact multi-speed automatic.

I think all of the auto OEMs are challenged by what they have to do to meet CAFE standards. Some have made inappropriate decisions when it comes to technologies that are not yet proven. They all have to make tradeoffs depending on the markets they serve and the financial resources they have at their disposals.

As most all of us know, the auto landscape is littered with past technology deployments that were not yet ready for prime time from any and all manufacturers. Their business is an incredibly competitive one that requires huge bets of capital commitments with little to no guarantee of adequate returns.

It will be interesting to see what happens in the future of this industry. I think some of Bob Lutz' thoughts and predictions may come true, and if they do IMHO that will be a sad time indeed.

https://www.autonews.com/article/20...944/bob-lutz-kiss-the-good-times-goodbye
 
Originally Posted by Wrenchturner44
Here is a brief article explaining history of DCT.

https://drivemag.com/red-calipers/history-of-the-dual-clutch-transmission

My son's 2014 Jetta has one and when he first got it, it's normal operational behaviour took a lot to get use to.

I think that is because most of us Americans are used to the conventional operation and reliability of "slushbox" automatics.

Sergio Marchione (RIP) insisted that he was going to use the Dodge Dart to teach Americans about the advantages of DCTs. Many of the Dodge Dart reliability, and warranty claims were related directly or indirectly to the DCT. I have a late 2013 Dodge Dart with the Chrysler World Engine (2.0 litre - shared with Hyundai, and Mitsubishi) coupled to the Powertech 6 speed made by Hyundai. It seems to work flawlessly for a compact multi-speed automatic.

I think all of the auto OEMs are challenged by what they have to do to meet CAFE standards. Some have made inappropriate decisions when it comes to technologies that are not yet proven. They all have to make tradeoffs depending on the markets they serve and the financial resources they have at their disposals.

As most all of us know, the auto landscape is littered with past technology deployments that were not yet ready for prime time from any and all manufacturers. Their business is an incredibly competitive one that requires huge bets of capital commitments with little to no guarantee of adequate returns.

It will be interesting to see what happens in the future of this industry. I think some of Bob Lutz' thoughts and predictions may come true, and if they do IMHO that will be a sad time indeed.

https://www.autonews.com/article/20...944/bob-lutz-kiss-the-good-times-goodbye


VW was one of the first adopters of robotized manual transmissions (let's not count single clutch SMG type found in BMW's, Lamborgihinis etc. which are nightmare to drive in regular traffic) and they had their set of issues, mostly related to owners skipping maintenance ABC.
But, properly done DCT is amazing transmission. PDK in Porsche made by ZF? That thing is a gem. BMW has very good DCT, VW sorted our some growing pains (I had DSG in 2010 CC, never had a single issue).
Question is: how committed company is in developing this and who is supplier? I am not sure is FORD manufacturing this or someone suppling it?
 
Originally Posted by edyvw
Question is: how committed company is in developing this and who is supplier? I am not sure is FORD manufacturing this or someone suppling it?


Getrag makes the assembles and Luk makes the clutches.
 
Originally Posted by bdcardinal
Originally Posted by edyvw
Question is: how committed company is in developing this and who is supplier? I am not sure is FORD manufacturing this or someone suppling it?


Getrag makes the assembles and Luk makes the clutches.

Hmmm, that is strange. I would say FORD wanted something cheap.
 
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by bdcardinal
Originally Posted by edyvw
Question is: how committed company is in developing this and who is supplier? I am not sure is FORD manufacturing this or someone suppling it?


Getrag makes the assembles and Luk makes the clutches.

Hmmm, that is strange. I would say FORD wanted something cheap.



The reason why they used Getrag and LUK is because the Fiesta and Focus are German designed Ford of Europe products and they have long been supplying FoE with all sorts of transmissions for many decades . Actually in Europe all Fiesta and Focus received the higher quality more durable "wet" clutch DCT, much like the ones VW/Audi uses and there was not too many problems with them. Dearborn ordered the less durable and troublesome, and much cheaper "dry" clutch DCT and there you have it. As usual the US arm cheapens what was a good DCT for a inferior cheaper one.

It's interesting too because the Fiesta built in Europe is one of the most reliable cars on the Continent in that subcompact catagory, and that includes the Fit, Yaris, ect...
the Focus is similar as well. But once Ford USA starts altering what the European Ford engineers designed the fallout shows up, as it did here with the dry DCT and a number of other components that were cheapened for the US market.
 
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by bdcardinal
Originally Posted by edyvw
Question is: how committed company is in developing this and who is supplier? I am not sure is FORD manufacturing this or someone suppling it?


Getrag makes the assembles and Luk makes the clutches.

Hmmm, that is strange. I would say FORD wanted something cheap.


Getrag also makes the MT82 which I am on my 3rd. If I hadn't have already invested in a MGW shifter for my MT-82 and didn't have 2 racecars as moneypits I would convert mine to a Tremec Magnum XL.
 
Originally Posted by AC1DD
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by bdcardinal
Originally Posted by edyvw
Question is: how committed company is in developing this and who is supplier? I am not sure is FORD manufacturing this or someone suppling it?


Getrag makes the assembles and Luk makes the clutches.

Hmmm, that is strange. I would say FORD wanted something cheap.



The reason why they used Getrag and LUK is because the Fiesta and Focus are German designed Ford of Europe products and they have long been supplying FoE with all sorts of transmissions for many decades . Actually in Europe all Fiesta and Focus received the higher quality more durable "wet" clutch DCT, much like the ones VW/Audi uses and there was not too many problems with them. Dearborn ordered the less durable and troublesome, and much cheaper "dry" clutch DCT and there you have it. As usual the US arm cheapens what was a good DCT for a inferior cheaper one.

It's interesting too because the Fiesta built in Europe is one of the most reliable cars on the Continent in that subcompact catagory, and that includes the Fit, Yaris, ect...
the Focus is similar as well. But once Ford USA starts altering what the European Ford engineers designed the fallout shows up, as it did here with the dry DCT and a number of other components that were cheapened for the US market.

I have been saying this in this thread. FORD knows how to compete in Europe. Focuse diesel taxis are all over the place.
Also, Getrag supplies some of the best DCT in the industry (BMW, Ferrari etc.), but cannot provide durable DCT for Fiesta? Obviously FORD made a list of demands and Getrag said: sure, you are paying.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted by AC1DD
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by bdcardinal
Originally Posted by edyvw
Question is: how committed company is in developing this and who is supplier? I am not sure is FORD manufacturing this or someone suppling it?


Getrag makes the assembles and Luk makes the clutches.

Hmmm, that is strange. I would say FORD wanted something cheap.



The reason why they used Getrag and LUK is because the Fiesta and Focus are German designed Ford of Europe products and they have long been supplying FoE with all sorts of transmissions for many decades . Actually in Europe all Fiesta and Focus received the higher quality more durable "wet" clutch DCT, much like the ones VW/Audi uses and there was not too many problems with them. Dearborn ordered the less durable and troublesome, and much cheaper "dry" clutch DCT and there you have it. As usual the US arm cheapens what was a good DCT for a inferior cheaper one.

It's interesting too because the Fiesta built in Europe is one of the most reliable cars on the Continent in that subcompact catagory, and that includes the Fit, Yaris, ect...
the Focus is similar as well. But once Ford USA starts altering what the European Ford engineers designed the fallout shows up, as it did here with the dry DCT and a number of other components that were cheapened for the US market.


VW recently moved to a dry-clutch variant of the DSG. I wonder if owners will have a similar experience.
 
I think the important questions regarding the DCT are 1.) Who designed & produced the input shaft seals, and 2.) Who wrote the operating code?

These are the folks that should be hanging their heads over this monumental failure.

Ford had a pretty decent reliability record going on right around 2011, which I believe is the year they surpassed Toyota. Then along came the Focus, with it's DCT and Sync issues.

So, are they killing sedans in the U.S. because the market is declining, or...is it because it will cost too much to fix their blunders? It can't be for the purpose of improving CAFE.

Wow...just noticed that there is no 2019 Focus on the Ford website. Amazing.
 
Originally Posted by WylieCoyote

Wow...just noticed that there is no 2019 Focus on the Ford website. Amazing.


Production ended more than a year ago and that factory now makes the Ford Ranger.
 
Or how they deploy a similar platform … such as Explorer sells, but Taurus did not …
 
Originally Posted by WylieCoyote
I think the important questions regarding the DCT are 1.) Who designed & produced the input shaft seals, and 2.) Who wrote the operating code?

These are the folks that should be hanging their heads over this monumental failure.

Ford had a pretty decent reliability record going on right around 2011, which I believe is the year they surpassed Toyota. Then along came the Focus, with it's DCT and Sync issues.

So, are they killing sedans in the U.S. because the market is declining, or...is it because it will cost too much to fix their blunders? It can't be for the purpose of improving CAFE.

Wow...just noticed that there is no 2019 Focus on the Ford website. Amazing.





This same scenario was happening in the eighties with the ECUs that blew out like cheap light bulbs. My old Ranger had four.

Blaming it on CAFE is a tired argument. CAFE has been around for decades.
 
Originally Posted by PimTac
This same scenario was happening in the eighties with the ECUs that blew out like cheap light bulbs. My old Ranger had four.

Blaming it on CAFE is a tired argument. CAFE has been around for decades.


That problem went well into the 90s with GM. I had several 6-ft stacks of them sitting in my way in the parts department when I worked at a Pontiac-Olds-GMC dealership in the early 90s. The warranty group wouldn't let me toss them, but they never requested that I send them in, either, so there they sat. The building is abandoned now...they're probably still sitting there. Seems like we had a Delta 88 or Toronado in the shop every day getting a new one.
 
Originally Posted by WylieCoyote
Originally Posted by PimTac
This same scenario was happening in the eighties with the ECUs that blew out like cheap light bulbs. My old Ranger had four.

Blaming it on CAFE is a tired argument. CAFE has been around for decades.


That problem went well into the 90s with GM. I had several 6-ft stacks of them sitting in my way in the parts department when I worked at a Pontiac-Olds-GMC dealership in the early 90s. The warranty group wouldn't let me toss them, but they never requested that I send them in, either, so there they sat. The building is abandoned now...they're probably still sitting there. Seems like we had a Delta 88 or Toronado in the shop every day getting a new one.




Yep and the only difference between then and now is that we didn't have the internet to expose and discuss these things.
 
Originally Posted by UncleDave

Any talk of ROI shouldn't leave out that "gem" of a mill the 1.0 ecoboost.

This is the next class-action lawsuit waiting to happen.

UD


1.0 ecoboost has been a pretty stout engine when they ironed out the issues overseas and brought it to the US. At least in the Focus; I'm not sure how it does in the ecosport considering that I think the focus should have been the heaviest car they put that engine into (I bet it feels right at home in a 300-pound lighter Fiesta though.)
 
Originally Posted by Kibitoshin


They don't even make their own engines anymore. Their heavy duty truck diesel engine is sourced by MAN and medium duty trucks uses Cummins engines.

Didn't MAN buy out a signifcant chunk of Navistar recently and started to port an Americanized version of their engine platform? VW also owns a good chunk of MAN, New Flyer uses MAN axles in their buses. I also think MAN owns Scania, who was once part of Saab and Neoplan.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...uying-majority-of-navistar-idUSKBN1HN1FN
 
Originally Posted by nthach
Originally Posted by Kibitoshin


They don't even make their own engines anymore. Their heavy duty truck diesel engine is sourced by MAN and medium duty trucks uses Cummins engines.

Didn't MAN buy out a signifcant chunk of Navistar recently and started to port an Americanized version of their engine platform? VW also owns a good chunk of MAN, New Flyer uses MAN axles in their buses. I also think MAN owns Scania, who was once part of Saab and Neoplan.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...uying-majority-of-navistar-idUSKBN1HN1FN
TRATON AG (formerly Volkswagen Truck and Bus, the subsidiary of the Volkswagen Group that controls European heavy truck makers MAN and Scania) holds a 16.6% ownership stake in Navistar but does not have controlling interest.
In the mean time, TRATON AG has gotten in bed with Hino. They also hold a 25% ownership stake in Sinotruk (the 3rd largest truck manufacturer in China) and they made a deal with GM to build trucks for them.
The auto/truck industry consolidations have gotten very complicated.
BTW, I love the beautiful retro look of the International Lonestar!
 
Last edited:
Getrag has produced the dry-clutch DCT in several plants all over the world(under the same roof with the wet-clutch versions perhaps)...some of the plants were shut down(Irapuato, Mexico) and production transferred. Getrag/Ford JV has (had) several plants producing IB5,MT82, MTX-75 and the DCT. Not sure where the NA ones are made (Livonia?) They might be imported from overseas too. Some of the sites are being shut down or sold completely to Magna as part of the Getrag purchase (Slovakia - Kechnec Transmission).

China and Italy(Modugno)are two more sites producing 6DCT250(DPS6)
https://corporate.ford.com/company/operation-list.html#s0f8
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magna_PT#cite_note-10


Quote
I cannot speak for our competitors, but our new generation of DCTs at Getrag will be 100 percent wet clutch. However, our current [dry clutch] 6DCT250 is one of the very best for fuel efficiency and it will stay on the market for another six to eight years.
(Getrag,y2014,DrivelineNews)
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted by PimTac
Originally Posted by WylieCoyote
I think the important questions regarding the DCT are 1.) Who designed & produced the input shaft seals, and 2.) Who wrote the operating code?

These are the folks that should be hanging their heads over this monumental failure.

Ford had a pretty decent reliability record going on right around 2011, which I believe is the year they surpassed Toyota. Then along came the Focus, with it's DCT and Sync issues.

So, are they killing sedans in the U.S. because the market is declining, or...is it because it will cost too much to fix their blunders? It can't be for the purpose of improving CAFE.

Wow...just noticed that there is no 2019 Focus on the Ford website. Amazing.





This same scenario was happening in the eighties with the ECUs that blew out like cheap light bulbs. My old Ranger had four.

Blaming it on CAFE is a tired argument. CAFE has been around for decades.

Put on a side that. All mfrs have to comply to it. So how other do better? Also, Euro VI are no joke, and yet FORD seems fine in EU.
 
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