Ford....in trouble??

[wdn]

Originally Posted by 1978elcamino


Well put, but think about what happens when the economy takes a long dive and the struggling couple walks into a dealer to look at an affordable family car. They ask to see the 4 door vehicles around 20k -25k and are advised they dont exist, there are no more sedans. The manufactures created the market by saying supply and demand forced them to no longer offer affordable cars.


Correction, there are no more sedans at FORD dealers. There are still Toyota, Subaru, Volkswagen, even Chevy sedans. The Subaru sedans are AWD, too.

Only Ford is boneheaded enough to get rid of it cars and is making excuses. Others are not following Ford off a cliff. Ford can say whatever it likes the company is on its last legs.

 

[itguy08]

Originally Posted by 1978elcamino
Well put, but think about what happens when the economy takes a long dive and the struggling couple walks into a dealer to look at an affordable family car. They ask to see the 4 door vehicles around 20k -25k and are advised they dont exist, there are no more sedans. The manufactures created the market by saying supply and demand forced them to no longer offer affordable cars (sedans). In my opinion is almost racketeering and forcing people to buy a "suv" for 10k more than the sedan platform it was built from. If or when this happens, the manufactures are not going to go back to selling cars for less money than their "suv" counterpart. Just my .02


They will be shown this:
https://www.ford.com/suvs-crossovers/ecosport/?gnav=header-all-vehicles
About as roomy as the Focus it replaces. Gets about as good fuel economy too.

Or this:
https://www.ford.com/suvs-crossovers/escape/?gnav=header-all-vehicles
About as roomy as the Fusion and about the same fuel economy.

Or even this:
https://www.ford.com/cars/fusion/?gnav=header-all-vehicles
Still kicking it in 2020 and is still a good car.

 

[itguy08]

Originally Posted by wdn
[Correction, there are no more sedans at FORD dealers. There are still Toyota, Subaru, Volkswagen, even Chevy sedans. The Subaru sedans are AWD, too.

Only Ford is boneheaded enough to get rid of it cars and is making excuses. Others are not following Ford off a cliff. Ford can say whatever it likes the company is on its last legs.


Funny, GM is pretty much canning Sedans. FCA, well, all they sell that actually makes them any $$ is Jeeps and Rams.

I suggest you study the charts here:
https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2019-us-passenger-car-sales-figures-by-model/
https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2020-us-passenger-car-sales-figures-by-model/

Note that even the standards like Accord, Camry. Civic, All Kia, nearly All Huyndai, All Mazda, most VW sedans are all DOWN in sales. Some by large margins. People don't generally want sedans any more.

 

[grampi]

Originally Posted by wdn
Originally Posted by 1978elcamino


Well put, but think about what happens when the economy takes a long dive and the struggling couple walks into a dealer to look at an affordable family car. They ask to see the 4 door vehicles around 20k -25k and are advised they dont exist, there are no more sedans. The manufactures created the market by saying supply and demand forced them to no longer offer affordable cars.


Correction, there are no more sedans at FORD dealers. There are still Toyota, Subaru, Volkswagen, even Chevy sedans. The Subaru sedans are AWD, too.

Only Ford is boneheaded enough to get rid of it cars and is making excuses. Others are not following Ford off a cliff. Ford can say whatever it likes the company is on its last legs.


Judging by the number of Fords I see on the road, I'd say they are far from being on their last legs...

 

[4WD]

Seems they still offer Mustang, Fusion, and Fiesta … Additionally some CUV's, SUV's, various vans, and of course the widespread series of trucks …
Good enough …

Our Fusion is a hybrid

 

[jeepman3071]

Originally Posted by itguy08
Originally Posted by wdn
[Correction, there are no more sedans at FORD dealers. There are still Toyota, Subaru, Volkswagen, even Chevy sedans. The Subaru sedans are AWD, too.

Only Ford is boneheaded enough to get rid of it cars and is making excuses. Others are not following Ford off a cliff. Ford can say whatever it likes the company is on its last legs.


Funny, GM is pretty much canning Sedans. FCA, well, all they sell that actually makes them any $$ is Jeeps and Rams.

I suggest you study the charts here:
https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2019-us-passenger-car-sales-figures-by-model/
https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2020-us-passenger-car-sales-figures-by-model/

Note that even the standards like Accord, Camry. Civic, All Kia, nearly All Huyndai, All Mazda, most VW sedans are all DOWN in sales. Some by large margins. People don't generally want sedans any more.



I'd say that's a pretty big generalization. CUVs are definitely selling more than sedans are, but to say people don't want sedans anymore is pretty silly considering how many newer Jettas, Mazda 3s, Civics, Accords, Corollas, Subarus, and Camrys I see on the road. If gas prices go back up you will see even more of them. Ford just doesn't build a sedan that enough people want compared with the above models, and neither does GM. Instead of improving their cars, they pulled out of the market altogether, which shows their poor business practices.

 

[PimTac]

"I'd say that's a pretty big generalization. CUVs are definitely selling more than sedans are, but to say people don't want sedans anymore is pretty silly considering how many newer Jettas, Mazda 3s, Civics, Accords, Corollas, Subarus, and Camrys I see on the road"



I think the key word here is "newer". Tons of sedans on the used car lots as consumers trade theirs in for crossovers. I see a fair amount of sedans on the road but only a small percentage of those are new.

Of those new sedans I see the Kia Forte and Mazda6 seem to be more prevalent.

 

[4WD]

I live in a small Texas town and it's a Ford town. What's most common on the lot in order of numbers?
Super Duty trucks … lots of them PSD
F150's … fancy 4WD versions
Full sized SUV
CUV
Maybe 4 Mustangs
Couple Fusions
Maybe one Fiesta

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Originally Posted by jeepman3071
Originally Posted by itguy08
Originally Posted by wdn
[Correction, there are no more sedans at FORD dealers. There are still Toyota, Subaru, Volkswagen, even Chevy sedans. The Subaru sedans are AWD, too.

Only Ford is boneheaded enough to get rid of it cars and is making excuses. Others are not following Ford off a cliff. Ford can say whatever it likes the company is on its last legs.


Funny, GM is pretty much canning Sedans. FCA, well, all they sell that actually makes them any $$ is Jeeps and Rams.

I suggest you study the charts here:
https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2019-us-passenger-car-sales-figures-by-model/
https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2020-us-passenger-car-sales-figures-by-model/

Note that even the standards like Accord, Camry. Civic, All Kia, nearly All Huyndai, All Mazda, most VW sedans are all DOWN in sales. Some by large margins. People don't generally want sedans any more.



I'd say that's a pretty big generalization. CUVs are definitely selling more than sedans are, but to say people don't want sedans anymore is pretty silly considering how many newer Jettas, Mazda 3s, Civics, Accords, Corollas, Subarus, and Camrys I see on the road. If gas prices go back up you will see even more of them. Ford just doesn't build a sedan that enough people want compared with the above models, and neither does GM. Instead of improving their cars, they pulled out of the market altogether, which shows their poor business practices.


Automakers have the data. For example about a year ago Honda was warning that uptake on the Accord was slowing and I believe they even temporarily shut down production. I see fewer new large/mid-sized sedans on the road. It seems that once a that 2nd child comes along families transition to the CUV/SAV or minivan.

 

[4WD]

Originally Posted by 4WD
I live in a small Texas town and it's a Ford town. What's most common on the lot in order of numbers?
Super Duty trucks … lots of them PSD
F150's … fancy 4WD versions
Full sized SUV
CUV
Maybe 4 Mustangs
Couple Fusions
Maybe one Fiesta


Edit… 4 Rangers

 

[4WD]

Right on, BMWTD … they have data by state/region and the dealerships have data for their city and even for a section of a large city that they have sales history in

 

[itguy08]

Originally Posted by jeepman3071
I'd say that's a pretty big generalization. CUVs are definitely selling more than sedans are, but to say people don't want sedans anymore is pretty silly considering how many newer Jettas, Mazda 3s, Civics, Accords, Corollas, Subarus, and Camrys I see on the road. If gas prices go back up you will see even more of them. Ford just doesn't build a sedan that enough people want compared with the above models, and neither does GM. Instead of improving their cars, they pulled out of the market altogether, which shows their poor business practices.


How is it a big generalization? Look at the data from last years sales. For the most part, sedan sales are down for all makes. IIRC even the Accord (some argue the best) was down something like 16% and it's very new. Camry (the other "best") was down something like 6% too. It's not just Ford and GM. If the industry leaders are down that says something. Even for those brands you stated the sales are down. You can't deny the data!

Poor business practices would be to invest 10's to 100's of millions into something that has had declining sales for years now. That's poor business right there. Let the market contract and let your competitors chase the scraps.

You all keep saying "when gas prices go up".... Well, look at the MPG of, say an Escape vs Fusion. They are not too far off. Certainly not as bad as when the SUV was a 15-18 MPG Explorer and the car was a 20-35 MPG Taurus.

For Example - 2020 Fusion SE is $24,500 and gets 23/34 MPG. 2020 Escape SE is $27,095 and gets 27/33 MPG. So where is this huge gas savings????

I get it - you like sedans. But buyers are not picking them and electing to purchase CUV/SUVs. It makes sense to build what people are buying.

 

[fdcg27]

Originally Posted by itguy08
Originally Posted by jeepman3071
I'd say that's a pretty big generalization. CUVs are definitely selling more than sedans are, but to say people don't want sedans anymore is pretty silly considering how many newer Jettas, Mazda 3s, Civics, Accords, Corollas, Subarus, and Camrys I see on the road. If gas prices go back up you will see even more of them. Ford just doesn't build a sedan that enough people want compared with the above models, and neither does GM. Instead of improving their cars, they pulled out of the market altogether, which shows their poor business practices.


How is it a big generalization? Look at the data from last years sales. For the most part, sedan sales are down for all makes. IIRC even the Accord (some argue the best) was down something like 16% and it's very new. Camry (the other "best") was down something like 6% too. It's not just Ford and GM. If the industry leaders are down that says something. Even for those brands you stated the sales are down. You can't deny the data!

Poor business practices would be to invest 10's to 100's of millions into something that has had declining sales for years now. That's poor business right there. Let the market contract and let your competitors chase the scraps.
You all keep saying "when gas prices go up".... Well, look at the MPG of, say an Escape vs Fusion. They are not too far off. Certainly not as bad as when the SUV was a 15-18 MPG Explorer and the car was a 20-35 MPG Taurus.

For Example - 2020 Fusion SE is $24,500 and gets 23/34 MPG. 2020 Escape SE is $27,095 and gets 27/33 MPG. So where is this huge gas savings????

I get it - you like sedans. But buyers are not picking them and electing to purchase CUV/SUVs. It makes sense to build what people are buying.


The Korean, Japanese and Europeans makers have all retained full lines of vehicles from entry level hatches through large CUV/SUV vehicles.
It's only the now little two who haven't.
Maybe GM and Ford are right and all of the rest of the world's major vehicle assemblers are wrong?
I wouldn't bet too much on that being the case myself.

 

[Mikey V.]

If you can't produce a product the consumer wants it's Business 101..cut product and move on.

 

[itguy08]

Originally Posted by fdcg27
The Korean, Japanese and Europeans makers have all retained full lines of vehicles from entry level hatches through large CUV/SUV vehicles.
It's only the now little two who haven't.
Maybe GM and Ford are right and all of the rest of the world's major vehicle assemblers are wrong?
I wouldn't bet too much on that being the case myself.


Again, look at the data. Leave your bias behind.
https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2020-us-passenger-car-sales-figures-by-model/

Notice the vast majority of CARS are DOWN IN SALES. From everyone, especially the Korean, Japanese and Europeans. Imagine that..... The only non-domestic automaker with a full lineup is Toyota and Nissan. They all have Cars, CUV, SUV, and trucks. The rest are missing parts of those segments. No trucks or LARGE(think Suburban/Expedition) SUVs from Hyundai, Mazda, Kia, Mercedes, BMW, etc. Look at the ads - when was the last time you saw a Camry, Corolla, Accord, or Civic ad? You see CR-V, Highlander, Pilot, RAV-4....

FCA has killed off nearly all their sedans too. They make 3. 300/Charger/Challenger. Their platforms are so old and dated they cost nothing to make.

I'd be willing to bet even some of those brands will quietly retire cars. One of the main reasons they do cars is it's easy as they sell those models elsewhere and I'd bet "federalizing" them is cheap. But you will see less and less new designs just tweaks and minor improvements like FCA has done.

In 2010 it was estimated that a new car cost a Billion to design (https://www.autoblog.com/2010/07/27/why-does-it-cost-so-much-for-automakers-to-develop-new-models/) and 2-4 years of time. That means you have to thing 2-4 years down. Sedan sales have been declining for a long while now. Why would any company pump $1Billion or more into a market that is constricting and has been accelerating its constriction for a while now? What sense does that make?

 

[Mikey V.]

Accord, Civic, Camry and Corolla will be around 10 years from now. Take that to the bank.

 

[itguy08]

Originally Posted by Mike L. V.
Accord, Civic, Camry and Corolla will be around 10 years from now. Take that to the bank.


Will they look like they do today or will they become CUVs?

 

[4WD]

Doesn't matter to me … never will

 

[Mikey V.]

Fusion, Focus and Fiesta are pushing up daisies. Toyota and Honda had Ford cutting their losses. When was the last time Ford had a car win Car of the Year or Make Motor Trends Top 10?

 

[Mikey V.]