Ford Halts Lightning Production for Battery Issues

[Torrid]

I must say I agree! I think they're going to burn up a lot of money trying to get it right, and PO a lot of customers in the process.

I really would have considered Ford for electric at one time too. The Lightning is an attractive idea, but between multiple battery issues and and the fact that I don't need a truck these days took them off for consideration. I just don't want a vehicle that big these days. My 2017 F150 was excellent. I drove it for 5 years and 60k miles without an issue, but I guess that's a small metric with cars these days. I've mentioned in the past how much of a disaster our Ford Edge was. Originally we were going to get a Mach-E to replace the Edge but we couldn't test drive one and Ford kept pulling the ability to order at different times. That landed us on VW, but they couldn't even let us lock our order until 7 months after the initial deposit and there were people locking in a month or less.

Tesla is the default choice for a reason. You give them money and they give you a car. Interesting concept.

 

[demarpaint]

I really would have considered Ford for electric at one time too. The Lightning is an attractive idea, but between multiple battery issues and and the fact that I don't need a truck these days took them off for consideration. I just don't want a vehicle that big these days. My 2017 F150 was excellent. I drove it for 5 years and 60k miles without an issue, but I guess that's a small metric with cars these days. I've mentioned in the past how much of a disaster our Ford Edge was. Originally we were going to get a Mach-E to replace the Edge but we couldn't test drive one and Ford kept pulling the ability to order at different times. That landed us on VW, but they couldn't even let us lock our order until 7 months after the initial deposit and there were people locking in a month or less.

Tesla is the default choice for a reason. You give them money and they give you a car. Interesting concept.

Just a hunch but I can see Ford losing a ton of money on their EV push. If I were them I would look to improve their ICE lineup, and get a handle on quality. I'm a long time Ford lover who became a Ford hater. Maybe they can win people like me back by improving their ICE vehicles and stepping up their QC. JMO

 

[alarmguy]

Very true
My local Ford dealer has a lighting truck that’s been on the showroom for a long time
Nobody willing to pay the cost nor is there a demand for such a vehicle

Well, location might be the key. Top selling EV pickup in 2022 and #3 in CA
They cant produce them fast enough.
"Ford’s facility is now running seven days a week with crews alternating 10-hour shifts. The additional shift comes as Ford strives to reach 150,000 units annual capacity by fall 2023."

https://fordauthority.com/2023/01/ford-f-150-lightning-sales-figures-in-california-revealed/

https://insideevs.com/news/653849/2023-ford-f150-lightning-price-range/

https://electrek.co/2022/12/13/ford...ramp-production-of-lightning-electric-pickup/

 

[Torrid]

Just a hunch but I can see Ford losing a ton of money on their EV push. If I were them I would look to improve their ICE lineup, and get a handle on quality. I'm a long time Ford lover who became a Ford hater. Maybe they can win people like me back by improving their ICE vehicles and stepping up their QC. JMO

I think they're looking to the future, but at the same time like you said they need to get their current situation under control. With the massive amount of safety issues with the Edge which resulted in complete brake failure twice and Ford wouldn't stand behind it, me spending $3k to fix a design failure because they claim our car didn't fall under the recall that already existed as I hear my wife describe her vehicle who's brakes don't work randomly just assures I'll never give them another dime of my money. At the time we owned 2 Fords and purchased both with the dealer we were trying to get the work done with. I contacted corporate and everything. We were their customers to lose and now there's not a single Ford in our garage.

It gets worse though. At the time of trying to fix the issue and me paying out of pocket, the dealer damaged a number of things on the vehicle, including cross threading the wheel lugs when reassembling the car. I found this out when we decided to take it to the Lincoln dealer instead to fix it since Ford was getting no where on actually fixing the problem. The Lincoln dealer is the one that finally got it back on the road, even ate some of the cost of the repairs as a good faith effort to try and recoup some of the losses of dealing with Ford.

TL;DR - Ford fumbled it, dealer made it worse. Wallet took the brunt of it and now Ford is out of consideration for me.

 

[demarpaint]

I think they're looking to the future, but at the same time like you said they need to get their current situation under control. With the massive amount of safety issues with the Edge which resulted in complete brake failure twice and Ford wouldn't stand behind it, me spending $3k to fix a design failure because they claim our car didn't fall under the recall that already existed as I hear my wife describe her vehicle who's brakes don't work randomly just assures I'll never give them another dime of my money. At the time we owned 2 Fords and purchased both with the dealer we were trying to get the work done with. I contacted corporate and everything. We were their customers to lose and now there's not a single Ford in our garage.

It gets worse though. At the time of trying to fix the issue and me paying out of pocket, the dealer damaged a number of things on the vehicle, including cross threading the wheel lugs when reassembling the car. I found this out when we decided to take it to the Lincoln dealer instead to fix it since Ford was getting no where on actually fixing the problem. The Lincoln dealer is the one that finally got it back on the road, even ate some of the cost of the repairs as a good faith effort to try and recoup some of the losses of dealing with Ford.

TL;DR - Ford fumbled it, dealer made it worse. Wallet took the brunt of it and now Ford is out of consideration for me.

They might be looking at the future but they need to focus on the now a bit more. I had Ford total a new van of mine back in 1984 for shoddy paint work out of the factory. An entire section of the roof was missed and they agreed to send it out to have the roof repainted. It was about 1 week old, and the shop they sent it to had scaffolding collapse totaling it. That's the short version. It was replaced with a problem free 1985. I bought another new one in 1987, which after about a year of bringing it back for an electrical issue, with repairs costing more than the cost of the vehicle I wore them out. They bought it back, and replaced it with a new 1988, and a check for about $5,000 for customization's I had done. I made out on that deal. I still liked them after that because the 1988 was great, and I still have it. Now the only way I would own a new Ford is if it were given to me, and I'd slap a for sale sign on it the same day I got it. They blew it as far as I'm concerned and I think now they're going to blow it on two fronts, ICE and EVs.

 

[Rmay635703]

EV trucks are probably one of the worst choices for people who actually use their truck to do truck stuff like hauling and towing. The range loss is just too much, its 50-70% loss when loaded. Even worse if its cold out. If all you do is drive it around with a couple people in it and nothing else and can afford the price, its probably not much different than an EV car. If you don't drain the battery down you don't need to worry so much about the long charge times.

Like everything “it depends “

My fathers truck towed and hauled for his small business rarely outside a 15 mile radius, he could literally have gotten several days of appointments to customers without issue, hauling or not.

His later business that hauled 500 miles round trip is a good example of why it’s very unfortunate the Chevy Volt concept got dropped for trucks, hybrid trucks can be designed to get better economy and plug in for all the local use, sad those died since small batteries cost a lot less and use less material.


The brodozer issues that “trucks” have an open economy car trunk for a bed is a modern truck first world issue.

Try to find a long box bench seat pickup that isn’t 25 years old, any truck that is just a large 5 seat station wagon with a truck bed
is just an oversized toy for Joe California to go with his buds skiing and not a real truck.

I really haven’t seen a real truck I would want made in many years.

Though the Maverick hybrid is attractive to me due to cost (MSRP ) fuel Economy and to replace a minivan since I don’t do much truck stuff anymore , I don’t like the cab size but will tolerate it only due to the price.

 

[JeffKeryk]

Just a hunch but I can see Ford losing a ton of money on their EV push. If I were them I would look to improve their ICE lineup, and get a handle on quality. I'm a long time Ford lover who became a Ford hater. Maybe they can win people like me back by improving their ICE vehicles and stepping up their QC. JMO

I believe Ford already loses money on every EV they sell. At least on the Mustangs...

 

[demarpaint]

I believe Ford already loses money on every EV they sell. At least on the Mustangs...

I believe so, and I can see it extending, dragging down their profit margin across all platforms.

 

[Rmay635703]

I believe Ford already loses money on every EV they sell. At least on the Mustangs...

Outside maybe GM (and maybe Nissan) no one but Tesla has learned the necessary lessons on how to design, market and sell an EV into the current market while keeping costs down.

Toyota is hung up on going it alone and having the battery infrastructure vertically integrated into their ecosystem and as yet they aren’t cost or density competitive with LG or Tesla which means they are mostly out of the market.

Ford has no one to blame but themselves for being behind

 

[Vercingetorix]

Porsche lost money on every 959, Nissan on every GTR. As long as Ford learns from the Mustang it doesn’t matter if they lose a little money, it is an investment in knowledge.

 

[Torrid]

Outside maybe GM (and maybe Nissan) no one but Tesla has learned the necessary lessons on how to design, market and sell an EV into the current market while keeping costs down.

Toyota is hung up on going it alone and having the battery infrastructure vertically integrated into their ecosystem and as yet they aren’t cost or density competitive with LG or Tesla which means they are mostly out of the market.

Ford has no one to blame but themselves for being behind

That's exactly it too. People bag on Tesla for not knowing how to build a car, but really that translates into that they don't know how to build a car using the traditional methods. For what they're doing they've gotten it down to a science to make money. Notice I didn't say they had it down to a science to make a good car. Everything I've seen including from reviewers like Out of Spec and others it seems like the quality has slipped on the S, the X was never really reliable due to its unnecessary complications, the Y while popular has had some issues though improving and I can't really see it as being more of an afterthought style wise to the 3. Apparently the Texas plant has gotten their stuff together because they've even been going through a few of these cars on Out of Spec and one they did a paint correction on and the fit and finish was great at least on their car. I share the same sentiment with mine though I haven't done a paint correction so I haven't had paint thickness measured, though it looks good and I don't have any panel gap issues either.

Everyone has what they consider a win in their own mind, but if it doesn't make money it doesn't make sense.

 

[alarmguy]

Porsche lost money on every 959, Nissan on every GTR. As long as Ford learns from the Mustang it doesn’t matter if they lose a little money, it is an investment in knowledge.

Exactly, I wonder how many people know that Tesla didnt turn a real profit for about 13 years until 2021
It sold 500,000 cars at a loss in 2020 but got $1.58 billion in regulatory credits in that year.
I am just backing up what you said, I am not saying to "others" in here that Tesla is not successful but I wonder how many people realize how much money Tesla did not make in over 10 years until recently and even in 2021 did not show a profit in the USA and paid no taxes. Oh wait, they made $721. (not a misprint, seven hundred twenty one dollars profit for 2021)
https://www.motorbiscuit.com/tesla-loses-money-on-every-single-car-heres-where-the-profit-hides/

 

[JeffKeryk]

Porsche lost money on every 959, Nissan on every GTR. As long as Ford learns from the Mustang it doesn’t matter if they lose a little money, it is an investment in knowledge.

You cite to small production number cars. Those are high profile vehicles that are great for advertising. The Mustang Mach-E is geared to be a high volume product; quite the opposite of a 959 or GTR.
Ford is a 100 year old company. One of the big boys... Didn't Ford lose money in 2022? I wish Ford, and others, luck as competition is good for us, the customers.

@alarmguy points out the many years Tesla lost money. That's what happens to start ups. In the early days, Toyota and Mercedes Benz invested in Tesla. The Rav4 EV was a joint effort between Tesla and Toyota. Mercedes invested and has reaped a huge return on investment. Without these benefactors, Tesla would likely be history. Heck, even Musk invested his forutne, which he almost lost in 2018 due to mfg line breakdowns.
Alarmguy correctly points out Tesla paid no Federal Income Tax in 2021; that is due mainly to 2 things: the tax code and rapid growth in factories and charging infrastructure. There is a difference on gross profit from operations (car mfg) and corporate business iniatives.

 

[Torrid]

Exactly, I wonder how many people know that Tesla didnt turn a real profit for about 13 years until 2021
It sold 500,000 cars at a loss in 2020 but got $1.58 billion in regulatory credits in that year.
I am just backing up what you said, I am not saying to "others" in here that Tesla is not successful but I wonder how many people realize how much money Tesla did not make in over 10 years until recently and even in 2021 did not show a profit in the USA and paid no taxes. Oh wait, they made $721. (not a misprint, seven hundred twenty one dollars profit for 2021)
https://www.motorbiscuit.com/tesla-loses-money-on-every-single-car-heres-where-the-profit-hides/

True. Time is the only difference. There's plenty that will say that Tesla makes too much money per car now. It's just not sustainable to lose money on every car if you don't have somewhere to pad the losses. Ford has many avenues. It's the cost of doing business to get into the market for them.

 

[Rmay635703]

True. Time is the only difference. There's plenty that will say that Tesla makes too much money per car now. It's just not sustainable to lose money on every car if you don't have somewhere to pad the losses. Ford has many avenues. It's the cost of doing business to get into the market for them.

Tesla like Amazon throws every dollar they don’t have into infrastructure.

If Tesla would have taken a more traditional approach they wouldn’t have a charge network, they wouldn’t have battery manufacturing and possibly would have been profitable 6 years ago.

People buy Teslas due to domestic infrastructure so there is no telling that they could have sold without the massive infrastructure donations.

 

[Torrid]

Tesla like Amazon throws every dollar they don’t have into infrastructure.

If Tesla would have taken a more traditional approach they wouldn’t have a charge network, they wouldn’t have battery manufacturing and possibly would have been profitable 6 years ago.

People buy Teslas due to domestic infrastructure so there is no telling that they could have sold without the massive infrastructure donations.

It's definitely true. We bought a Model 3 because they could actually deliver the car. I really didn't consider the benefits of the supercharger network until we owned the car. Now after using the supercharger network I'm confident in the experience enough I'd replace our only remaining gas car with a Tesla. I've had some experience with Electrify America now and it's not been completely positive. I've never not had the supercharger network work as intended when I've need it. My job's demands of being on call with a 2 hour call to be to work I'd trust Tesla with that. I can get as much as a 4 hour call depending on where I get called to. If I was called somewhere with a non Tesla electric car and couldn't find more than a level 2 and not gotten a full enough charge at home from my last call, I might not make it to work on time. I make too much to risk losing my job for that. I would trust Tesla for that, otherwise my current GTI is good enough on fuel on the highway that I don't feel I'm wasting money driving it and it is a rewarding experience in a very different way than the Tesla.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

Yeah, I dont think big EV trucks and SUVs will be in high demand. Im almost certain those drivers will place convenience of the ICE over all else.
If course not everyone but I suspect more than most think only because I certainly feel that way.

My 3.5EB has a range nearly 5x the Lightning when towing a 5k lb trailer, and can be back on the road in 10-15 minutes. Pile on a sticker nearly double what my truck was brand new, and that’s an AWFULLY tough pill to swallow!

 

[Exhaustgases]

Not really. Empirically, Ford isnt so good. Bad quality. Batteries are fine. Of course they can faul just like anything else. Heres a plane earlier this month that caught fire and had to land. Had nothing to do with a battery...so can we just admit planes are unsafe and Big Oil is the reason they exist? Just pushing their fuel consuming agenda, huh? #EverythingIsAConspiracy

https://www.google.com/amp/s/abc7ch...g-catches-fire-glasglow-jfk-airport/12805777/

And what is that video about? Off topic? Here you go.

https://abc7news.com/plane-evacuated-san-diego-laptop-fire-united-airlines-flight-2664/12783898/

 

[Ws6]

And what is that video about? Off topic? Here you go.

https://abc7news.com/plane-evacuated-san-diego-laptop-fire-united-airlines-flight-2664/12783898/

We can do the anecdotal thing all day long, but I'm going to continue driving my 11 second daily driver for peanuts, and you're going to continue putting your cell phone in your pocket, aren't you?

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

We can do the anecdotal thing all day long, but I'm going to continue driving my 11 second daily driver for peanuts, and you're going to continue putting your cell phone in your pocket, aren't you?