Ford Considering Scrapping Lightning

[ME_Andy]

I think the Cybertruck was really exciting, it just wasn't executed well. Didn't hit the price and range targets, plus something about the trailer hitch breaking

 

[Torrid]

Dedicated truck folks are traditionalists by nature. Trucks need power, load and towing capacity. Profilers have taken the traditional truck and neutered them for watered down use, or to look cool driving them to Publix etc. Which is surprising why a $100K EV truck doesn't sell to these posers. Add the "I'm saving the world by driving a battery powered truck" to the mystique and it should have been a runaway. Sadly, most can't afford a $1200 a month truck payment to make this statement.

Now, something a bit more practical, hauls 4 adults in relative comfort and can handle a dozen bags of mulch? Priced so that a lot more folks can fit it into the budget? Well, again, maybe it's just me that thinks this way.

The crowd posing in trucks see "saving the planet" as effeminate and a weakness. It really is a mental disorder that goes along with squatted trucks and tires well past the fender.

 

[jghall00]

I think the Cybertruck was really exciting, it just wasn't executed well. Didn't hit the price and range targets, plus something about the trailer hitch breaking

The hitch breaking wasn't a good test. They far exceeded the loads anyone can reasonably expect to see. I thunk the ori e was the biggest factor. You can sell nearly anything at the right price. Elon has gotten acclimated to overselling his products.

 

[Torrid]

Luxury and fun is nice!
As well as free choice!
On the flip side for the life of me, I can’t understand the need for street legal compact sized cars and hatchbacks with 500 hp

The last thing you listed is a way of life! I guess mine isn't a hatchback these days though.

 

[97prizm]

This seems idiotic, most of the "money losing" on this product is due to its development cost, which is supposed to be recouped via sales. The reason Ford went with a truck in the first place was because that's their highest sales vehicle and trucks made up 50% of the volume of the top-10 vehicle sales. Trucks are already expensive, so people are already willing to pay more. It seemed like a good strategy at the time.

Cutting their losses now would mean that they never recoup that CAPEX, so unless the projection is that they will really never recoup that CAPEX, this seems short sighted.

Locally, I'd say the most common EV's are the Lightning and the Tesla Model 3, followed by the Model Y. I haven't seen a single electric GM pickup, see a few H/K products and a few Audis. There's a single EV Hummer and one or two Cyber Trucks, one of which is apparently for sale right now for 99K.

All the arguments about long term towing and the like, that's not the target demographic. It's people that mainly never, or never, use their truck for that purpose. Furthest we tow is Muskoka, so about 2 hours, less than 200km, and that's twice a year with the boat. Otherwise, the "truck" stuff the truck does is move the 4-wheeler to the country (well within the capability of an EV), dump runs, trips to home depot...etc. Our usage profile is far more common than the guy that slaps a camper behind a half ton and tows it for 14 hours, which yes, a gas or diesel truck is going to be better at.

Should Tesla cut their Cybertruck and run? It's not selling, each one sells at a loss and this years numbers are way worse than last year. Predictions are 20-25k total which would be half of last years total. I wonder if Ford figured out what their break-even number is on the F-150 Lightning and how long they predicted to get there?

 

[JeffKeryk]

I think the Cybertruck was really exciting, it just wasn't executed well. Didn't hit the price and range targets, plus something about the trailer hitch breaking

There are only so many buyers for something that expensive with those looks. Very few.

Ford and Tesla may never recover their investment. I think Ford has the better chance, by a long shot.

 

[RBT]

The crowd posing in trucks see "saving the planet" as effeminate and a weakness. It really is a mental disorder that goes along with squatted trucks and tires well past the fender.

Respectfully disagree. Use my Ram 1500 for towing, hauling, and commuting. The Lightning is cool - my wife loves the frunk but if we hook up a horse trailer and have to charge every 20 minutes it defeats the purpose of having a truck. The use case for electric in a commute context is much stronger. This is an example of the of the government distorting the market, and again I think the Lightning is cool.

 

[SC Maintenance]

But most half-ton truck owners do very little towing or hauling. EVs have become politicized. The Silverado/Sierra can tow long distances.

6000 lbs trailer (which is pretty light for any kind of RV) - 232 miles. Not bad, but really not enough for a contractor, and if your towing a boat / RV thats your roundtrip limit likely - in most places / parts of the country.

 

[jghall00]

6000 lbs trailer (which is pretty light for any kind of RV) - 232 miles. Not bad, but really not enough for a contractor, and if your towing a boat / RV thats your roundtrip limit likely - in most places / parts of the country.

My Expedition gets 250 miles with my 7k camper hooked up, so this performance is very competitive. It's the aero profile that drives consumption, not the weight. But payload is the limiting factor for most tow vehicles. Most contractors are probably covering metro areas, not pulling long distances.

I asked one of the dads from my daughter's softball team (roofer) and he said he gets around too much, but I have a hard time believing that the 400+ miles the Silverado and Sierra can do (unladen) aren't enough for 90% of daily driving. He's not the type to admit that an electric car would work for their household. His wife had one as a loaner for their Denali and they complained about charging.

I've had my Blazer EV for just under a year. It's at 22,000 miles and I can nearly count on my fingers and toes how many times I used public chargers. Of the thousands of miles I've pulled my camper, only six trips were over 500 miles. That's two charging stops. I think people are using 10% of their miles to make a decision on what they drive for the other 90%.

 

[SC Maintenance]

My Expedition gets 250 miles with my 7k camper hooked up, so this performance is very competitive.

Yes, and you roll into a station anywhere and 5 minutes later your on your way again.

I asked one of the dads from my daughter's softball team (roofer) and he said he gets around too much,

So you have never made a living out of a pickup truck then. OK. You can have whatever opinion you want to concoct.

Sure - a roofer could make a Honda Civic work too if he had to. Read my comment again. The supposed "benefits" of an EV pickup truck for a working man are not perceived as benefits, and hence they have no interest in buying one. Marketing 101.

They also detest people telling them what to do.

 

[jghall00]

Yes, and you roll into a station anywhere and 5 minutes later your on your way again.

Never happens. By the time everyone goes to the bathroom and gets food at least 30 minutes have elapsed. That does not include the time waiting for a pump my rig fits in to open up. For some reason, people have decided it's ok to park at the pump while browsing Buc-ee's.

So you have never made a living out of a pickup truck then. OK. You can have whatever opinion you want to concoct.

Anecdotally, I see posts from many tradesmen that love their EVs. However, almost universally, the ones that express skepticism are the ones that have never owned one. I think one of those opinions may carry more weight than the other. But as with anything, YMMV.

 

[GON]

6000 lbs trailer (which is pretty light for any kind of RV) - 232 miles. Not bad, but really not enough for a contractor, and if your towing a boat / RV thats your roundtrip limit likely - in most places / parts of the country.

Range hauling a trailer is very subjective, especially with a electric. One can't take risks, limited charge station opportunity especially in rural areas. That 232 miles range might actually be half that in much of rural United States.

A good example, I occasionally would drive my 2002 V10 4.33 rear end from Salt Lake City to Denver to visit our Daughter. Based on wind, interstate extended interstate shut downs on the route, and limited field stops, I had to carry a five gallon emergency fuel can in the truck (unleaded). What is the prudent mitigation measure for a electric truck in the same route? Recharge every 50 miles? And hope the charge station is working?

 

[SC Maintenance]

Never happens. By the time everyone goes to the bathroom and gets food at least 30 minutes have elapsed. That does not include the time waiting for a pump my rig fits in to open up. For some reason, people have decided it's ok to park at the pump while browsing Buc-ee's.

I travel all across the SE for work just about every week. 5 minutes top - most pumps are open. Don't go to the buc-ee's tourist trap.

Anecdotally, I see posts from many tradesmen that love their EVs. However, almost universally, the ones that express skepticism are the ones that have never owned one. I think one of those opinions may carry more weight than the other. But as with anything, YMMV.

Online posts. Laughable. Again, how could you possibly know what these people think if you have never been one?

But for fun, please educate me on what the possible advantage of an EV would be for a tradesman? I understand what they are for a commuter:

1) the fuel cost is lower. Maybe - but first you need to have to compare the price of gas vs the much higher acquisition cost. Of course the acquisition cost can be taken as special depreciation, but only for year one. Then it also assumes you charge at home - and assuming you could figure that out (because most work trucks don't park in the garage), how do I keep track of how much electricity I used to charge so I can write that off. I would say this is nebulous at best - unlike a commuter car.

2) Its more convenient because I don't have to go the gas station. But I am going anyway, if for no other reason than there is no restroom on my jobsite. Also see part about charging at home (or not)

3) Lower maintenance. Except I sincerely doubt it for something that gets beat. I guess time will answer this one because EV trucks are pretty new. Another reason not to be the Beta tester.

4) Instant torque. OK - probably true, but does it really matter. Remember this is a work vehicle, not a fun vehicle. Maybe for some.

 

[jghall00]

I travel all across the SE for work just about every week. 5 minutes top - most pumps are open. Don't go to the buc-ee's tourist trap.

The clean bathrooms at Bucc-ees means something when you have a house full of women.

Online posts. Laughable. Again, how could you possibly know what these people think if you have never been one?

As I said, I'm only relating what others have posted. I have no reason to doubt the sentiment they've expressed. But don't take my word for it, check out some of the Lightning and Silverado/Sierra EV forums and see what the owners say.

But for fun, please educate me on what the possible advantage of an EV would be for a tradesman?

I'm not a tradesmen, but IMO:

• Less downtime for maintenance
• Less expense for maintenance consumables
• Less expense for fuel
• Onboard power for tools
• Less wear and tear idling
• Cabin can be conditioned in heat or cold at minimal cost
• Easier towing...instant torque is a thing

how do I keep track of how much electricity I used to charge so I can write that off.

The charger tells you.

3) Lower maintenance. Except I sincerely doubt it for something that gets beat. I guess time will answer this one because EV trucks are pretty new. Another reason not to be the Beta tester.

I have ICE and EVs. The ICE vehicles require far more maintenance. Don't ask me about my turbo manifolds, or my timing chain, or the head gasket...and that's just the stuff the shop has handled.

4) Instant torque. OK - probably true, but does it really matter. Remember this is a work vehicle, not a fun vehicle. Maybe for some.

Being able to quickly accelerate when hauling a trailer is definitely beneficial. When I pull my camper I appreciate having enough power to merge with traffic, or to go around slower moving vehicles.

I'll tell you the same thing I tell all the skeptics. Try renting one. If it's not for you, then at least you know for certain.

 

[97prizm]

I think the Cybertruck was really exciting, it just wasn't executed well. Didn't hit the price and range targets, plus something about the trailer hitch breaking

They also "forgot" to install the light bar from the factory. Consumers complained so Tesla sent them light bars and adhesive and said they weren't legal to install from the factory. They would have been had Tesla installed a cover over them. There aren't any mounting brackets. Just adhesive. With Tesla engineers claiming to be super efficient and smart decisions like this blow my mind.

 

[97prizm]

At its $39k intro price it had a chance. But that soon evaporated

Add in it won't tow what Musk initially claimed, doesn't have the range, and they took deposits for a range extender that they then canceled. The Cybercab isn't doing so hot either. Musk and co swear that they'll unveil the roadster "This year". They don't even have prototypes testing. Who wants to bet Musk a couple of Billion that they don't get it out the door next year?

 

[97prizm]

I think with more conventional styling the Tesla truck could have done well.

And fix the fit and finish. I saw two in a parking lot up close and the rough sharp uneven edges. For a $120k truck they're not even trying. Tesla isn't a start up anymore. Top Gear used to poke fun a Noble Cars LTD as they were built in a shed according to Jeremy Clarkson.

 

[97prizm]

Who said that?
I believe the Lightning's problem was it was too expensive and a pickups aren't the best candidates for electric drivetrains. Perhaps one day?

I give Ford credit for at least reporting their EV business results; everyone else buries them in the ICE numbers.

Tesla lumps the model x, S, and Cybertruck together. I wonder why?

 

[SC Maintenance]

The clean bathrooms at Bucc-ees means something when you have a house full of women.

Your mixing your glamping experience with my comments about people working with a truck and trying to tell someone it takes them 30 minutes to gas their truck when it doesn't. Clearly didn't work for Ford either.

As I said, I'm only relating what others have posted. I have no reason to doubt the sentiment

Self selecting website. I did see a CT with a locksmith placard recently. I am sure there are certain trades it might work for, so yes exceptions exist, but thats all they are - exceptions.

I'm not a tradesmen, but IMO:

Yes. You should go do it for a while. Maybe your opinion changes, maybe not

The charger tells you.

Will IRS accept this? Honest question - don't know? Possibly each charge - in a logbook or something?

 

[alarmguy]

Yes, and you roll into a station anywhere and 5 minutes later your on your way again.

Never happens. By the time everyone goes to the bathroom and gets food at least 30 minutes have elapsed. That does not include the time waiting for a pump my rig fits in to open up. For some reason, people have decided it's ok to park at the pump while browsing Buc-ee's.

Huh? Not true
That maybe your method of traveling and why an EV might work for you if you are willing to stop 30 minutes, at best, when needing to re-charge, at zero cost savings over the price of gas in many cases.
To each their own for others, road warriors you might say it would be a PITA

For me almost never would I accept that scenario.
Ex. I’m going to go to my sons house around Thanksgiving. 253 miles- 3 hours 53 minutes
5 hours later I’m going home
No stopping or inconvenience for me except 8 minutes at most to top off my gas tank.

Our daughters house is an additional 80 miles, refueling isn’t a concern or inconvenience vs the thought of needing to charge

EVs in my world definitely could have a use but not as the primary vehicle which is nice comfy gasoline SUV for road trips and towing