http://www.acdelcotechconnect.com/html/tas_filt_oil_main.jsp I found this on the ACDelco website under resistance to flow. It says many filter producers sacrifice flow rate for retention size. In order of priority it is most important for the engine to have oil pressure and flow over retention size.
Flow vs efficiency
- Thread starter steveh
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You can see in the hot oil test none of the filters are restrictive enough to open your average bypass around 8-12 psi
http://www.acdelcotechconnect.com/images/tas_filt_oil_hot_img.gif
I'm also surprised by the low holding capacity of the filters around 11-12 grams while a Fram Ultra is up to 32 grams of capacity on the XG8A
http://www.acdelcotechconnect.com/images/tas_filt_oil_hot_img.gif
I'm also surprised by the low holding capacity of the filters around 11-12 grams while a Fram Ultra is up to 32 grams of capacity on the XG8A
^^^ Yep, just like I mentioned the other day in another thread ... even at a high flow rate with hot oil, the delta-p between a bunch of filters will typically only be +/- 2 PSI. The +/- difference in delta-p is even lower at lower flow rates. This chart pretty much shows that.
Forgot to mention - the chart posted above shows 5W-30 at 190 deg F. Most engines will bring the oil up to about 210~220 deg F, which means the delta-p will notch down some from what the graph shows. And if you're running 5W-20, it will notch the delta-p down even a little more.
Originally Posted By: Nate1979
Originally Posted By: Nate1979
The Fram Ultra is less than 4 psi delta at 10gpm. It has very high efficiency as well. Apparently it's not one that AC Delco is talking about LOL.....
Edit: this is for 30w at 180F.
Motorking's data said the flow was at 8 GPM. See his post down a few from this point in this thread ---> LINK
Either way, to only have 4 psi of delta-p at 8 GPM with 30W @ 180 deg F shows to be a very free flowing oil filter IMO.
Originally Posted By: Nate1979
The Fram Ultra is less than 4 psi delta at 10gpm. It has very high efficiency as well. Apparently it's not one that AC Delco is talking about LOL.....
Edit: this is for 30w at 180F.
Motorking's data said the flow was at 8 GPM. See his post down a few from this point in this thread ---> LINK
Either way, to only have 4 psi of delta-p at 8 GPM with 30W @ 180 deg F shows to be a very free flowing oil filter IMO.
So when the holding capacity is reached, that means the pressure drop is higher. How else do they determine holding capacity? So maximizing use of a filter should reduce flow. Filters vary greatly in size, how can a thimble size hold the same as the garbage can size? They say one amount of grams, say 32g. They also say 15k or whatever, on what car, a new one or the oldest, most worn out one that exists? A person would have to cut open their filters and try to assess what is the best plan.
Thanks for the lonk steveh!
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: Nate1979
Originally Posted By: Nate1979
The Fram Ultra is less than 4 psi delta at 10gpm. It has very high efficiency as well. Apparently it's not one that AC Delco is talking about LOL.....
Edit: this is for 30w at 180F.
Motorking's data said the flow was at 8 GPM. See his post down a few from this point in this thread ---> LINK
Either way, to only have 4 psi of delta-p at 8 GPM with 30W @ 180 deg F shows to be a very free flowing oil filter IMO.
Mine was email exchange with Jay in relation to the Subaru Boxer engine. Maybe my data is specific to the filter on the Subie?
Originally Posted By: Nate1979
Originally Posted By: Nate1979
The Fram Ultra is less than 4 psi delta at 10gpm. It has very high efficiency as well. Apparently it's not one that AC Delco is talking about LOL.....
Edit: this is for 30w at 180F.
Motorking's data said the flow was at 8 GPM. See his post down a few from this point in this thread ---> LINK
Either way, to only have 4 psi of delta-p at 8 GPM with 30W @ 180 deg F shows to be a very free flowing oil filter IMO.
Mine was email exchange with Jay in relation to the Subaru Boxer engine. Maybe my data is specific to the filter on the Subie?
Originally Posted By: 901Memphis
I'm also surprised by the low holding capacity of the filters around 11-12 grams while a Fram Ultra is up to 32 grams of capacity on the XG8A
Higher holding capacity is better for sure. But if an engine can produce more than 4-5 grams of metals in a 10k miles OCI than it is dying. No oil filter can stop it from killing itself.
I don't pay attention to holding capacity, I look for better filter efficiency and flow rate. Also, I am paying attention to air filter system to make sure there is no leak. I think preventing dust getting into the engine is better than rely on oil filter.
I'm also surprised by the low holding capacity of the filters around 11-12 grams while a Fram Ultra is up to 32 grams of capacity on the XG8A
Higher holding capacity is better for sure. But if an engine can produce more than 4-5 grams of metals in a 10k miles OCI than it is dying. No oil filter can stop it from killing itself.
I don't pay attention to holding capacity, I look for better filter efficiency and flow rate. Also, I am paying attention to air filter system to make sure there is no leak. I think preventing dust getting into the engine is better than rely on oil filter.
Not all deposits caught by filters are metal, there are carbon combustion byproducts also.
Originally Posted By: goodtimes
So when the holding capacity is reached, that means the pressure drop is higher. How else do they determine holding capacity? So maximizing use of a filter should reduce flow.
With a positive displacement oil pump, the flow is not reduced as the filter loads up ... rather the delta-p increases while the flow stays the same. As the filter loads up, the delta-p increases until the bypass valve opens up. Even then, the flow rate should still be the same as long as the pump isn't in pressure relief mode.
What becomes 'dangerous' when running a filter super long on a dirty engine is that it gets closer and closer to running near the bypass valve setting, and therefore bypass events can occur way more often (especially in cold temperatures), which isn't really desirable.
And as you mentioned earlier, I believe the 'holding capacity' is defined when a certain delta-p is achieve ... probably somewhere close to the bypass valve setting.
Originally Posted By: goodtimes
Filters vary greatly in size, how can a thimble size hold the same as the garbage can size? They say one amount of grams, say 32g. They also say 15k or whatever, on what car, a new one or the oldest, most worn out one that exists? A person would have to cut open their filters and try to assess what is the best plan.
Yes, this is a somewhat nebulous area and hard to nail down. Typically the holding capacity will be linked to a specific filter model number - so that's pretty easy to get.
Not sure about how they come up with the mileage rating. The statement format used is typically ... "provides up to 15,000 miles of engine protection." Key words are "up to". I would assume the mileage claim would hold true on most engines in pretty good condition that have had good regular oil and filter changes.
So when the holding capacity is reached, that means the pressure drop is higher. How else do they determine holding capacity? So maximizing use of a filter should reduce flow.
With a positive displacement oil pump, the flow is not reduced as the filter loads up ... rather the delta-p increases while the flow stays the same. As the filter loads up, the delta-p increases until the bypass valve opens up. Even then, the flow rate should still be the same as long as the pump isn't in pressure relief mode.
What becomes 'dangerous' when running a filter super long on a dirty engine is that it gets closer and closer to running near the bypass valve setting, and therefore bypass events can occur way more often (especially in cold temperatures), which isn't really desirable.
And as you mentioned earlier, I believe the 'holding capacity' is defined when a certain delta-p is achieve ... probably somewhere close to the bypass valve setting.
Originally Posted By: goodtimes
Filters vary greatly in size, how can a thimble size hold the same as the garbage can size? They say one amount of grams, say 32g. They also say 15k or whatever, on what car, a new one or the oldest, most worn out one that exists? A person would have to cut open their filters and try to assess what is the best plan.
Yes, this is a somewhat nebulous area and hard to nail down. Typically the holding capacity will be linked to a specific filter model number - so that's pretty easy to get.
Not sure about how they come up with the mileage rating. The statement format used is typically ... "provides up to 15,000 miles of engine protection." Key words are "up to". I would assume the mileage claim would hold true on most engines in pretty good condition that have had good regular oil and filter changes.
Originally Posted By: 901Memphis
I'm also surprised by the low holding capacity of the filters around 11-12 grams while a Fram Ultra is up to 32 grams of capacity on the XG8A
Were the low holding capacity specs on over-sized filters too?
I'm also surprised by the low holding capacity of the filters around 11-12 grams while a Fram Ultra is up to 32 grams of capacity on the XG8A
Were the low holding capacity specs on over-sized filters too?
Originally Posted By: dlundblad
Originally Posted By: 901Memphis
I'm also surprised by the low holding capacity of the filters around 11-12 grams while a Fram Ultra is up to 32 grams of capacity on the XG8A
Were the low holding capacity specs on over-sized filters too?
11-12 grammes is like a tablespoon of stuff caught on the filter.
That's certainly not "low" in an engine that's essentially sealed...it's like having 2,400ppm of insolubles stuck in the filter, and some times that in circulation.
Originally Posted By: 901Memphis
I'm also surprised by the low holding capacity of the filters around 11-12 grams while a Fram Ultra is up to 32 grams of capacity on the XG8A
Were the low holding capacity specs on over-sized filters too?
11-12 grammes is like a tablespoon of stuff caught on the filter.
That's certainly not "low" in an engine that's essentially sealed...it's like having 2,400ppm of insolubles stuck in the filter, and some times that in circulation.
Originally Posted By: goodtimes
Filters vary greatly in size, how can a thimble size hold the same as the garbage can size?
I don't think it can. However, its noteworthy Honda advocates changing the filter every other oil change, and the filter they use on the 3.5 is as small as I have ever seen.
I just don't think the vast majority of filters ever come close to completely filling, and that even includes those used for two oil change intervals.
Filters vary greatly in size, how can a thimble size hold the same as the garbage can size?
I don't think it can. However, its noteworthy Honda advocates changing the filter every other oil change, and the filter they use on the 3.5 is as small as I have ever seen.
I just don't think the vast majority of filters ever come close to completely filling, and that even includes those used for two oil change intervals.
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: dlundblad
Originally Posted By: 901Memphis
I'm also surprised by the low holding capacity of the filters around 11-12 grams.......
Were the low holding capacity specs on over-sized filters too?
11-12 grammes is like a tablespoon of stuff caught on the filter.
That's certainly not "low" in an engine that's essentially sealed...it's like having 2,400ppm of insolubles stuck in the filter, and some times that in circulation.
Great point.
As noted 11-12 grams is a lot of contaminates/particulates, especially so in a well maintained engine. More than enough leeway for a vehicle manufacturer's recommended oci/fci.
Originally Posted By: gfh77665
....However, its noteworthy Honda advocates changing the filter every other oil change, and the filter they use on the 3.5 is as small as I have ever seen.
I just don't think the vast majority of filters ever come close to completely filling, and that even includes those used for two oil change intervals.
And Honda specs the longer 7317/14610 size filter, where Nissan and others spec the shorty thimble size version of that filter, the 6607/14612 application.
Originally Posted By: dlundblad
Originally Posted By: 901Memphis
I'm also surprised by the low holding capacity of the filters around 11-12 grams.......
Were the low holding capacity specs on over-sized filters too?
11-12 grammes is like a tablespoon of stuff caught on the filter.
That's certainly not "low" in an engine that's essentially sealed...it's like having 2,400ppm of insolubles stuck in the filter, and some times that in circulation.
Great point.
As noted 11-12 grams is a lot of contaminates/particulates, especially so in a well maintained engine. More than enough leeway for a vehicle manufacturer's recommended oci/fci.
Originally Posted By: gfh77665
....However, its noteworthy Honda advocates changing the filter every other oil change, and the filter they use on the 3.5 is as small as I have ever seen.
I just don't think the vast majority of filters ever come close to completely filling, and that even includes those used for two oil change intervals.
And Honda specs the longer 7317/14610 size filter, where Nissan and others spec the shorty thimble size version of that filter, the 6607/14612 application.
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