Five Euro Car Myths?

Originally Posted by MCompact
Originally Posted by jeepman3071
Any car regardless of brand will be expensive to own and maintain if the owner is ignorant about how the car works and what it needs. I'm not saying everyone needs to be a mechanic, but at least be somewhat familiar with what the price of a repair should be.


I agree- and I think that's the reason I haven't had many reliability issues with any of my cars. German cars tend to be designed and engineered with the presumption that the car will be maintained by the book. Most other manufacturers assume the worst with respect to owner maintenance and design the vehicle accordingly.



Most of the issues on these cars that are at least 3 years old are well documented, and so are the repairs. In fact I'd rather have the BMW community where you can do a simple Google search and find lots of info on forums. Compared to when I did a search on a problem my friend's 2008 Tacoma had and came across a bunch of threads where people just took it to the dealer. Not a fault of the vehicle itself, but just a different base of owners.

No vehicle is better than another, they just serve different purposes. My mom has owned Hondas most of her life, and they suit her perfectly. She doesn't care how a car drives, just wants it to work on minimal service. When it does break, she can go basically anywhere and get it fixed. My 1998 Wrangler is probably more maintenance hungry than my 09 BMW, but then again it's 22 years old and I bought it knowing it wouldn't be a gas and go appliance.
 
I've always been impressed with the tech, feel, and overall driving dynamics (NVH, steering feel, etc) of Europeans cars. Some of their designs were questionable (rear-bottom mounted turbos on 335 that required removing or loosening the subframe iirc). They always seem to have the latest technology in them but come with the expense or difficulty of DIYers, ie: trying to do the rear brakes on an Audi B8 A4 that has the electric parking brake.

With that said, basic maintenance on my roommate's M235i is pretty basic and straightforward. It's the maintenance or fixing that is not basic that will worry me.
 
Originally Posted by Pew
I've always been impressed with the tech, feel, and overall driving dynamics (NVH, steering feel, etc) of Europeans cars. Some of their designs were questionable (rear-bottom mounted turbos on 335 that required removing or loosening the subframe iirc).


Unfortunately that I6 is actually tilted ~20 degrees towards the passenger side so it'll fit in the engine bay which ends up placing the turbo closer to the subframe.
 
Having owned cars from MB, BMW and even a lone VW as well as an MGB if you want to include that, these cars are no more nor less trouble than anything from Asia or the US.
Most of the loose talk about how awful Euro cars are to own comes from those who've either never owned one or who bought some ragged out example that hadn't had proper attention in years and ten of thousands of miles.
Take reasonable care of these cars and they're really no more troublesome or costly to own than anything else.
Model selection also matters as does an understanding of what to watch out for prior to purchase, but that's really true of any make or model.
There are many seriously bad Toyotas, Hondas and Subarus just waiting for a buyer who doesn't understand just how bad an abused and poorly repaired car can be regardless of the badge it wears.
 
I've owned lots of German, Swedish and Italian cars. Most were fun to drive (especially Italian) but they needed above average amounts of TLC to be reliable. Parts especially for the Teutonic varieties can be pricey. OTOH Japanese cars need lots less attention to be reliable. Witness their popularity in the US, Europe and third world countries. They tend to be less satisfying to own and drive.

Ginger or Mary Anne?
 
Admittedly I own both an old(ish) German car and three older Asian cars, but at least for me there is no comparison whatsoever. The amount of money, effort and work I've poured into my BMW to keep it running is more than the three Asian cars combined. I'd say cooling system parts is #1 for the BMW what with 13 hoses, two water pumps, two fans, an electric water valve and a 3-hose heater core. About every 85,000 miles or so the water pump is sure to start failing and when it does you need to remove the intake manifold to replace the two aluminum tubes that run underneath it to the rear collector manifold. But that's just the beginning, many other systems on the BMW are just plain unreliable compared to the Japanese counterpart. It's weird, when you hold the German component it feels more substantial than the Asian part and looks better built - but guess which one fails first? I just replaced the water pump on my ECHO after 20 years and 250,000 miles because it had never been done and I thought it should be replaced, but the bearings still felt good and it wasn't leaking.

Every plastic clip, fastener and holder on the BMW breaks when you try and remove it. Not only that the design of the faster is non-intuitive compared to the Toyota or Honda clip, only once you've broken it do you find out how you should have removed it in the first place. Never do I say "why would they do it that way?" with the Asian cars, only the BMW. On many repair jobs I have spent as much on clips and fasteners as I have on the part that I'm replacing.

Nevertheless I love driving the BMW, only some day soon the rust is going to catch up and I'll finally have to get rid of it.
 
Originally Posted by MCompact
jeepman3071 said:
Any car regardless of brand will be expensive to own and maintain if the owner is ignorant about how the car works and what it needs. I'm not saying everyone needs to be a mechanic, but at least be somewhat familiar with what the price of a repair should be.

"I agree- and I think that's the reason I haven't had many reliability issues with any of my cars. German cars tend to be designed and engineered with the presumption that the car will be maintained by the book. Most other manufacturers assume the worst with respect to owner maintenance and design the vehicle accordingly.





I have had great experiences on my European cars since my first new car, a 1986 VW Jetta, through my current Range Rover, however with my taste in toys I will admit that I am dogmatic in my views about maintenance.

I'd venture that a lot of the reputation comes from folks who have never owned one but heard the rumor, folks who bought a rat of a "luxury" car cheap with the inevitable results or folks who don't maintain them. I don't know if European cars are prone to fail more do to lack of maintenance, but when they do, parts are usually more expensive.

I will say, on the whole the German and Swedish makes I have owned use very high quality components. An example; I was just under our '99 Porsche looking at the coolant hoses and suspension bushings (out of paranoia) and they were absolutely fine....

Of course, the most painless car I ever owned was an S2000...
 
I've been driving Saabs for over 35 years and have found them to be durable and pretty reliable as well. I've run them up to 300,000 miles and more. Parts are probably more expensive than some other vehicles but not too bad. Just installed a new water pump for my daily driver that cost about $50 brand new, several years ago a rebuilt alternator was around $150, fuel pump $100.

Just for grins I checked pricing for those parts on a similar vintage Chevy and they were about the same. I really don't think it's cost me much more to run these cars than it would have with the leading brands. I have not owned other European cars so cannot comment on them.
 
@Saabist you ideas about Euro car reliability and cost should be based on the opinions of people who have never owned them
 
Originally Posted by Alfred_B
@Saabist you ideas about Euro car reliability and cost should be based on the opinions of people who have never owned them


Agreed. And pay particular attention to the "experts" who are bitter and jealous of the people who actually own a European vehicle.
 
Originally Posted by kschachn
Admittedly I own both an old(ish) German car and three older Asian cars, but at least for me there is no comparison whatsoever. The amount of money, effort and work I've poured into my BMW to keep it running is more than the three Asian cars combined. I'd say cooling system parts is #1 for the BMW what with 13 hoses, two water pumps, two fans, an electric water valve and a 3-hose heater core. About every 85,000 miles or so the water pump is sure to start failing and when it does you need to remove the intake manifold to replace the two aluminum tubes that run underneath it to the rear collector manifold. But that's just the beginning, many other systems on the BMW are just plain unreliable compared to the Japanese counterpart. It's weird, when you hold the German component it feels more substantial than the Asian part and looks better built - but guess which one fails first? I just replaced the water pump on my ECHO after 20 years and 250,000 miles because it had never been done and I thought it should be replaced, but the bearings still felt good and it wasn't leaking.

Every plastic clip, fastener and holder on the BMW breaks when you try and remove it. Not only that the design of the faster is non-intuitive compared to the Toyota or Honda clip, only once you've broken it do you find out how you should have removed it in the first place. Never do I say "why would they do it that way?" with the Asian cars, only the BMW. On many repair jobs I have spent as much on clips and fasteners as I have on the part that I'm replacing.

Nevertheless I love driving the BMW, only some day soon the rust is going to catch up and I'll finally have to get rid of it.


I've owned one Mini Cooper S and countless Volkswagens. Unequivocally, my Asian vehicles have been more reliable as well. At 12000 miles, the jury's out on the current Passat but so far so good except for two wheels constantly losing center caps since new, forcing me to buy a spare set. Trivial to me? Yes but still an annoyance to someone new to the brand.
 
Here it is how this thread is going:
- Yeah right, no way.
- Does not dispel myth.
etc, etc.

And then this:
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/foru...72536/2013-toyota-highlander#Post5472536

- Are you sure it is not something else?
- Maybe they really did not change pump?
- Yeah there are complaints about water pumps, but....

Even owners of BMW's with electric pumps would find this issue ridiculous, but in Toyota world, that is OK.
 
Originally Posted by edyvw
Here it is how this thread is going:
- Yeah right, no way.
- Does not dispel myth.
etc, etc.

And then this:
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/foru...72536/2013-toyota-highlander#Post5472536

- Are you sure it is not something else?
- Maybe they really did not change pump?
- Yeah there are complaints about water pumps, but....

Even owners of BMW's with electric pumps would find this issue ridiculous, but in Toyota world, that is OK.

Really?
-The owner says "yeah I'm annoyed".
-Me (self proclaimed Toyota fanboi) agrees that water pumps been a problem.

Yet you accuse us of calling it ok? What gives? Selective reading?

What am I to do? Swear off Toyota ownership because their water pumps are sub-par? AFAIK none of the water pumps have been catastrophic failures--I guess someone somewhere has run out of coolant and melted an engine, but AFAIK most have been caught before that stage.
 
Myth #3: European cars are hard to work on

I'm sorry but as somebody that has owned both Japanese and German cars this isn't a myth, it's an unfortunate reality. The two things that really annoy me about working on German cars is the insistence on using an ever expanding array of fasteners in every shape and size and the sheer number of special tools that you would need to acquire if you wanted to do any job following the FSM. If you're working on a Japanese car you know the bolts will be 8,10,12,14,17,19, 21, and 22mm, don't have a 13 or 15mm wrench well don't worry you won't need one. On a modern German car bring all your sockets and wrenches, and don't forget your Allen, Torx, E-Torx, Torx-Plus, security Torx, triple square, pozidrive, etc bits, sockets, and keys/wrenches. On VW/Audi's they use Allen and Torx bolts right next to each other, they do the same thing why not just pick one? If Torx bolts are so much better than Allen bolts, why keep using Allen bolts? And why even entertain the notion of introducing marginally better Torx-Plus or triple square bolts? Special tools are also a constant source of frustration of any DIYer that happens to own even an old and simple German car like an W123 Mercedes. Japanese companies like Toyota design their cars to avoid using special tools when possible, if you don't have a set of plastic trim tools you won't need them on many Toyota's as the FSM will tell you to use a flat screwdriver with tape on the tip. Japanese cars use simple spring type hose clamps, VW/Audi use special obscure Oetiker hose clamps that are one time use, and of course require a special tool to install. And people wonder why do so many people drive Toyota's in developing countries?
 
Suppose that a car company designed and advertised that its products could be easily and inexpensively maintained and repaired. Would people buy them?

If cooking got as complicated as fixing a modern car we'd all be starving.
 
Originally Posted by MCompact
Originally Posted by Alfred_B
@Saabist you ideas about Euro car reliability and cost should be based on the opinions of people who have never owned them


Agreed. And pay particular attention to the "experts" who are bitter and jealous of the people who actually own a European vehicle.

I will say that it's important to keep up with maintenance on a Saab or other European vehicle. Do that and they can run reliably a very long time. (Even though my buggy is nearly 25 years old and has over 350,000 miles it runs strong and repairs are infrequent.) Neglect them though and they won't be as forgiving as a Toyota or Chevrolet.

As far as jealousy, well I don't think many people are jealous at the sight of my beater Saab 9000 with its rust. metal tape patches, and fading paint. Bad as it looks though, it still drives great - and it's long since been paid for.
 
Originally Posted by Alfred_B
Touring5 said:
Of the multiple cars I've owned over the last couple of decades, the BMW is easily the easiest to work on and get parts for. Part of it is the large community online that has lots of information and guides on how to fix things when they break. Yes, they do break, but not dramatically more than the Nissan, Buick, or Subaru I've had in that period.
I owned a 2003 E85. A very fun car. and I had no maintenance problems. Run flat tires were expensive though. Enjoyed the annual get together at Spartanburg.
 
Originally Posted by Saabist

As far as jealousy, well I don't think many people are jealous at the sight of my beater Saab 9000 with its rust. metal tape patches, and fading paint. Bad as it looks though, it still drives great - and it's long since been paid for.


It's either that or sour grapes; something provokes some poor wretches to wade into a discussion on Euro cars and babble fifth-hand hearsay about cars that they haven't even sat in. FCA vehicle threads see similar moronic conduct.
I just don't understand what else would motivate those "experts." Me, I don't see the point of trolling a topic that concerns a vehicle that I wouldn't drive- even at gunpoint.
 
Originally Posted by supton
Originally Posted by edyvw
Here it is how this thread is going:
- Yeah right, no way.
- Does not dispel myth.
etc, etc.

And then this:
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/foru...72536/2013-toyota-highlander#Post5472536

- Are you sure it is not something else?
- Maybe they really did not change pump?
- Yeah there are complaints about water pumps, but....

Even owners of BMW's with electric pumps would find this issue ridiculous, but in Toyota world, that is OK.

Really?
-The owner says "yeah I'm annoyed".
-Me (self proclaimed Toyota fanboi) agrees that water pumps been a problem.

Yet you accuse us of calling it ok? What gives? Selective reading?

What am I to do? Swear off Toyota ownership because their water pumps are sub-par? AFAIK none of the water pumps have been catastrophic failures--I guess someone somewhere has run out of coolant and melted an engine, but AFAIK most have been caught before that stage.

Of course you should not swear off. However, on Euro cars red flags are water pumps, yet on Toyota it is a problem, but why would that stop you from ownership? It should not, nor should on BMW. Though on BMW might be easier to change.
 
Not exactly a rally of funny apologists over there that one would recognize without own inclinations. But maybe they're already everywhere around and they're coming. They must already be cleaning youtube from catastrophic-landcruiser-engine-disaster videos. So there must be lots of. Beware of the Toyota family!

ATTENTI AL CANE
AL PADRONE
E A TUTTA LA FAMIGLIA

Among my cars - first was a Chevota (classic FJ-40 with sb and 250 B&M blower), Kia Clarus, Seville SLS, XJR X308 and RX-8 followed - all I killed or just spent in some way. Only exception I'm inclined to find was the Jaguar: Two transmissions were spent for less than 200tkm, that was a bit fast. These years had the Mercedes transmission from the S600. Wrong Euro in a Euro...
 
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