first trans fluid change in '12 Camry

[LeakySeals]

Originally Posted By: doitmyself
Respected member Jim Allen provided data in a thread here stating that the majority of new transmission particulate production is in the first 10 - 20 thousand miles (can't remember the number) and the most important fluid change is done at this low mileage (again, can't remember the number).

Leaky Seals, you are contradicting this data and saying that today's transmissions run cleaner from the start and don't require an early change.

What are we to believe?? Maybe Jim will pipe in here??

I have not read read that thread. No way Jim could go over each manufacturer, each fluid type, so assume he's setting a general guideline across manufacturers. This is a drill down for the 12 Camry transmission. At 50k I'm far below what Toyota states for a fluid change (lifetime). My own Toyota experience... Never replaced a transmission at any mileage, never replaced the screen filter, never opened one up to look. Just drain and fills every year/every other year with OE fluid. Add online complaints. Relatively few, most are neglected drains. So there's no contradiction, just Toyota specific drain milestones which differ some. I think he's fine to 50k, he can open it up an have a look if he wants to be reassured.

 

[doitmyself]

Here's a couple of threads with Jim's mantra:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2900047

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2883378

In the first, Jim recommends a change at 5,000 miles based on the decades of data collected by E & K. But he does concede that both import and U.S. cleanliness in tranny mfg. has improved over the past 25 years.

I will PM Jim to see if he has data that indicates that high levels of break in particulates are still a concern with newer cars.

We know that the fluid quality has improved greatly in recent years.

 

[Lloyd_Hanning]

Originally Posted By: doitmyself
Here's a couple of threads with Jim's mantra:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2900047

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2883378

In the first, Jim recommends a change at 5,000 miles based on the decades of data collected by E & K. But he does concede that both import and U.S. cleanliness in tranny mfg. has improved over the past 25 years.

I will PM Jim to see if he has data that indicates that high levels of break in particulates are still a concern with newer cars.

We know that the fluid quality has improved greatly in recent years.


Thanks....Interesting reading...There was one comment about two guys who did a lot of research on trans fluids and said 75% of the wear comes in the first 5K.....Which kind of makes sense to a layman like me.
Also, there were some comments on putting a temperature gauge to monitor the fluid..
Any idea where I could find more information about this?

Thanks
Lloyd

 

[LeakySeals]

Agree with Jim. IMO think it will always be the case, with no such thing as a lifetime fluid. But to a lesser extent with new designs, better fluids. Same as engines, intervals are increasing including FF. 50k was a recommendation for a 2012 Toyota w/WS, could be lower on something else. If he decides to drain and fill early, suggest he reviews the procedure first, and goes underneath to see whats involved.

 

[firefighter0629]

I am also a fan of 30k drain and fills! What are we talking about here... 1 quart Toyota WS = $9. So maybe $40 for a drain and fill. I believe the piece of mind is more important to me than to believe that this fluid is LIFETIME.
If you need help with doing the 2012 Toyota Camry Transmission change why not contact your local Toyota dealership. I know they are in the business of making a profit, but they have been very helpful in answering questions for me.

Toyota of Apex
Apex, NC

 

[Jim Allen]

Well, Leaky asked and here I am. Shoulda seen it but have been busy. Really not needed here, though. You all are on the right track.

The only way to know for sure how good or bad the fluid is is to take a sample and have a particle count done. That costs as much as a cooler line filter like a Magnefine, so why not do the Magnefine?

I interviewed Abe Khalil (the "K" of E & K) three years ago and he told me some interesting stuff that you may appreciate:

1) Installing filtration on a new car is the same as doing that
2) Import AT mfrs have historically been best in terms of manufacturing cleanliness, so the type 1 debris is less a factor. The domestic mrs have been improving greatly.

3) Break in debris, type 2 debris, has been mitigated somewhat by better mfr'ing processes but will always be a factor, so additional filtration or a
I recommend adding filtration as the first step... if possible (some cars do not lend themselves to it easily). RIght away. I'm talking drive-it-home-from-the-dealer-and-install-the-filter right away. Abe said that back in the '80s when he was beginning his research, when he got a new car, he drove it from the dealer's lot to the shop and changed the trans oil (taking a sample of course)... that's how committed he was to the idea. Along the same lines, adding a filter is a forever thing that will always be working for you and saves you having to dump what is basically good oil. IMO, it's worth putting the money into something like that. It practically guarantees no issues due to contamination buildupand it can extend the operating life of the fluid. Again, it makes sense if you will be keeping the vehicle long term

 

[Lloyd_Hanning]

Originally Posted By: firefighter0629

If you need help with doing the 2012 Toyota Camry Transmission change why not contact your local Toyota dealership. I know they are in the business of making a profit, but they have been very helpful in answering questions for me.

Toyota of Apex
Apex, NC


Yeah, I'll ask the dealer..BUT I'm under the impression that there's a lot more knowledge and experience on this board...Also, I just didn't want to get tearing into it and find out there's something that's "new and improved"......like when I tried to find the trans dipstick. Just want to make sure I have all the tools and parts.

 

[Lloyd_Hanning]

Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
Well, Leaky asked and here I am. Shoulda seen it but have been busy. Really not needed here, though. You all are on the right track.

The only way to know for sure how good or bad the fluid is is to take a sample and have a particle count done. That costs as much as a cooler line filter like a Magnefine, so why not do the Magnefine?

I interviewed Abe Khalil (the "K" of E & K) three years ago and he told me some interesting stuff that you may appreciate:

1) Installing filtration on a new car is the same as doing that
2) Import AT mfrs have historically been best in terms of manufacturing cleanliness, so the type 1 debris is less a factor. The domestic mrs have been improving greatly.

3) Break in debris, type 2 debris, has been mitigated somewhat by better mfr'ing processes but will always be a factor, so additional filtration or a
I recommend adding filtration as the first step... if possible (some cars do not lend themselves to it easily). RIght away. I'm talking drive-it-home-from-the-dealer-and-install-the-filter right away. Abe said that back in the '80s when he was beginning his research, when he got a new car, he drove it from the dealer's lot to the shop and changed the trans oil (taking a sample of course)... that's how committed he was to the idea. Along the same lines, adding a filter is a forever thing that will always be working for you and saves you having to dump what is basically good oil. IMO, it's worth putting the money into something like that. It practically guarantees no issues due to contamination buildupand it can extend the operating life of the fluid. Again, it makes sense if you will be keeping the vehicle long term





Jim: Don't you think an oil analysis would be best if it's done on the second and later changes?...Only because you know there's probably some particles from the manufacturing.

Thanks
Lloyd

 

[Jim Allen]

As to an early PC, yes, though it would be nice to see a sample of what it looks like in a new Toyota. That's why I just suggested adding filtration right off. Don't need the PC; don't need to change the oil.

 

[doitmyself]

On a new vehicle under warranty, I fear that adding a Magnifine might cause a problem IF there was a warranty issue.

I base this on the fact that I KNOW (from experience) that manufacturers will look for anything to cause trouble in warranty matters.

Its not that I don't trust Magnefine (used on my last Caravan). It's the warranty process of having everything by the book. It adds another layer of having to fight for warranty rights. It's an aftermarket alteration, a little bit different than using an aftermarket engine oil filter.

I wonder if a person could have a dealer install the Magnefine to alleviate this fear.

 

[Jim Allen]

Well, that is a legitimate fear.

I look at things a little differently than most. As a former ASE Master Tech, I have absolute certainty in my ability to do a super clean and virtually fault-proof installation that could pass OE muster. In the fractional percentage change that something outta the blue happened and could be attributed to the filter when it is not in fact due to the filter, I am confident that my relentlessness and knowledge of the "system" has a good chance to win the day. In the end, if I screwed up, I can accept the consequences.

I doubt the dealer would want to install a MF but it might be worth asking. Expect to get a highly negative lecture and be prepared for a "Law & Order" style presentation of the facts.

Yes, an early oil change accomplishes the same thing a lot more simply!

Remember that Magnefine has a metal cased unit with JIC fittings on each end that can be made into a factory-like installation.

 

[doitmyself]

Thank you Jim. You are one of the few well grounded members at BITOG that usually has facts to support your ideas.

Each person has to deal with their own beliefs and comfort levels.

I suppose if a particular vehicle's plumbing was easy, one could mount a Magnefine temporarily, filter the fluid, and then return the vehicle back to OEM condition. There's an option! Maybe. I used to do this with the Prestone DIY flush kits many years ago.

Thanks again.

EDIT: Hmmmmm. Seems like a "tranny fluid cleaning service" might be a good idea for today's "lifetime" fill units. For $40 bucks you take your car to a service garage (or DIY) every 30K for a fluid cleaning. Then, at some point you replace the fluid when the additives wear out. A win-win situation for both the garage and vehicle owner.

 

[LeakySeals]

Originally Posted By: doitmyself
Thank you Jim. You are one of the few well grounded members at BITOG that usually has facts to support your ideas.

Each person has to deal with their own beliefs and comfort levels.

I suppose if a particular vehicle's plumbing was easy, one could mount a Magnefine temporarily, filter the fluid, and then return the vehicle back to OEM condition. There's an option! Maybe. I used to do this with the Prestone DIY flush kits many years ago.

Thanks again.

EDIT: Hmmmmm. Seems like a "tranny fluid cleaning service" might be a good idea for today's "lifetime" fill units. For $40 bucks you take your car to a service garage (or DIY) every 30K for a fluid cleaning. Then, at some point you replace the fluid when the additives wear out. A win-win situation for both the garage and vehicle owner.

Hold on! doitmyself recommending a service garage?

The main problem I have with service garages is they push universal bulk fluids they get deals on for a bigger profit margin. These fluids are "recommended for" and "suitable for use in" but not "approved by" the manufacturer. So unless your asking Toyota to do it, IMO better to "doitmyself".

 

[doitmyself]

Originally Posted By: LeakySeals
Hold on! doitmyself recommending a service garage?

The main problem I have with service garages is they push universal bulk fluids they get deals on for a bigger profit margin. These fluids are "recommended for" and "suitable for use in" but not "approved by" the manufacturer. So unless your asking Toyota to do it, IMO better to "doitmyself".


Or, as Mori used to affectionately call me, Doit-to-myself.

In this case, I was referring to the masses, not us goofballs.

 

[LckydevL]

I changed the trans fluid on my Civic at the 10k mark after listening to Jim Allen and reading all the research materials he provides for us from others. I suffered a bit of grief from my father about it. When he saw all the junk on the magnetic drain plug he quieted down pretty quickly. The fluid was bright and clear but you could still see a lot of "junk" floating around in it that you would think would not be there.

I, like many others here, probably thought we were ahead of the game by changing trans fluid at the 50k mark. And we were. But when you see the junk I saw coming out of a almost brand new trans you will become an instant believer as did my father.

To me it was just plain common sense after having Jim bring it to my attention. Most people change the oil early on a brand new car due to excess break in materials, right? Why not do the same thing for your transmission?