Finding new tires that are not out of round - mission impossible?

[thescreensavers]

https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2013/MC-10123987-9999.pdf

Was looking around to see if there were any road force limits and found the above document from Audi which mentioned 18lbs I have a feeling that's where continental is getting that number from.

But it also shows an OEM allows 18lbs. You sure your vibration issue is not due to other issues with your vehicle? How where they wheels checked ? Are the wheel Hub faces clean? You are using the correct lug nuts for your wheels?

 

[Chris142]

We have had an awful time with egg shaped truck tires at my work. I often have to mount then dismount a set or 2 before I get some that don't shake the drivers teeth out

 

[Cujet]

Costco/Michelins, as that combo is the easiest to deal with.

Consider using a wheel repair firm to install your tires. They will check each rim for roundness and other flaws. It does not take much to have a stack of problems, leading to an impossible to fix "out of round" condition.

Remember, even one curb hit or big pothole can tweak a rim enough to be problematic.

 

[ProbeGT]

Since Road Force® is a made-up term by Hunter, I can 100%, without-a-doubt, assure you that Toyota (or any other manufacturer) is not using it as any type of production or service standard that a tire has to meet or pass to be considered "good". The tires on a new Toyota Corolla haven't met some arbitrary Road Force® number when they were first mounted and when those tires are replaced at the local Toyota dealer, they're not being sent back to Bridgestone or Michelin if they don't result in a specific Road Force®.

These statements are demonstrably false. For example, all wheel+tire assemblies installed on GM cars must first be measured on "GM approved tire force variation measurement equipment." Anything that doesn't meet a predefined RFV (radial force variation) is not allowed. "Road Force" is mentioned 5 times in the GM Service Bulletin here: https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2016/SB-10089121-2280.pdf

Toyota and other manufacturers have similar requirements, no doubt.

Then, there's this: https://acurazine.com/forums/3g-tl-...ad-force-balancing-technical-question-781035/

I work at a GM Dealer and ASE Master Tech. I use the Road Force machine a lot at work. Our limit for cars or trucks per GM is 24lbs of Road force. I can tell you that there is a HUGE difference in 4 tires that are in the 5-10lb range and 4 tires in the 20lb range. Sometimes spinning the tire on the rim can bring the tire within spec but most times it will only drop it 3-4lbs.

The point being, most OEM factory installed wheel+tire assemblies have gone through rigorous testing. Unlike loose tires purchased at tire shops. So it can be hard to get a smooth ride from new replacement tires. Sometimes you get lucky. But I never do. Sometimes it's a poor balancing job but far too often, it's the tire itself that has unacceptable runout due to poor construction/manufacturing. Just looking for tips on how to maximize my chances of my next tire purchase being good, round and balanced.

 

[DuckRyder]

Then, there's this: https://acurazine.com/forums/3g-tl-...ad-force-balancing-technical-question-781035/

I work at a GM Dealer and ASE Master Tech. I use the Road Force machine a lot at work. Our limit for cars or trucks per GM is 24lbs of Road force. I can tell you that there is a HUGE difference in 4 tires that are in the 5-10lb range and 4 tires in the 20lb range. Sometimes spinning the tire on the rim can bring the tire within spec but most times it will only drop it 3-4lbs.

I have some disagreement with him (i read his entire reply not just your quote) firstly that GM's limit is 18 for passenger car tires IME, secondly that the GSP will tell you how much turning the tire will reduce it and how much to turn. It tells you where to mark the tire, where to mark the wheel you break the beads and line the marks up. But it will only do this accurately if you put the work in to measure everything. Ive seen larger swings.

Also the tech has to get the basics right, i've seen nice improvements just by breaking the bead and reseating it.

Also Also worst tire i ever saw was a Conti Vanco was something ridiculous like 75 lbs, and got it down to 50ish... didn't have any problem getting that one replaced.

 

[Heywood_6078]

I guess I got lucky. I just put a new set of these Radar tires on my old 2002 Ford F-150
and they all balanced out very well. As a matter of fact, they are the best riding tires I've ever had on it. And, they are excellent in snow. We just had a foot of snow and I went anywhere I wanted to go.

Robot or human?

 

[ProbeGT]

I have some disagreement with him (i read his entire reply not just your quote) firstly that GM's limit is 18 foot passenger car tires IME, secondly that the GSP will tell you how much turning the tire will reduce it and how much to turn. It tells you where to mark the tire, where to mark the wheel you break the beads and line the marks up. But it will only do this accurately if you put the work in to measure everything. Ive seen larger swings.

Right, it's probably 24 for trucks and 18 for cars. Note in my OP screenshot, the tech circled 18 as the acceptable limit. However, even 18 can be too high and cause shaking, as I found out over the years. I don't claim to be an expert, I'm just someone who's had poor luck with getting good results from new tires, across different brands and tire shops. It's the one thing I cannot do myself in the garage.

 

[DuckRyder]

Yeah, when i manage to get my shop built, I'm going to have to buy a GSP, it's unfortunate. Until then ill go back to GA to my friends.

 

[tblt44]

The worst tire I had for out of round was Dunlop back in the day bought from allied discount tires (tires ain't pretty). Tire shop installed 2 different sets with the same issue. I then went with Michelin and brought there junk
tires back to them in the back of my truck
I have

 

[oggb]

Never had an issue with new tires and I never have them roadforce balanced. Continental, BFG, GT Radial, Falken, Yokohama, Cooper, General, Michelin, Hankook... never a balance problem that I could feel.

 

[Lapham3]

My wife will drive a 10 year old Venza in summer with Michelin Premier LTX tires. That thing is the smoothest ride that I've ever had-and I'm an oldster. I have a pretty good Discount Tire a mile away and also an Indy that is very good that can true/shave tires. I've used him a couple times where a tire was way out of round. Otherwise lots of putting up with less than great tires and service over the years. Such is life.

 

[loneryder]

Most of my tire business is done at Costco. I even have them rotate and balance my non Costco tires for $25. Their tire guys get a lot of training from Michelin. I realize not everybody has a Costco near them.
Also factory tires on new cars, batteries too, are not the same quality as the same model aftermarket tire. The manufacturer specs for the cheapest tire of whatever model. I had Goodyear Eagle GT’s on a new car that became out of round after a few thousand miles. A Goodyear dealer replaced them and told me factory Eagle GTs were not as good as aftermarket GTs. This was back when Eagle GT’s were the hot tire to have.
Also replaced the 2yr old battery in my Chrysler mini van. When I pulled the old one out it had 12 month battery on it’s hidden Side. So you buy a new car and get a 12 month battery.

 

[DuckRyder]

BTW Haven't been in one in a while, but a few years back most Discount tires i was in (and we were anthem often) did not have full fledged road force balancers they were only capable of quick match.

Even if they do you can bet quick match and smart weight are turned on unless the tech turns it off, as noted in the Audi TSB it should be turned off...

 

[ekrampitzjr]

No one has mentioned this elephant in the room.

Some front-drive cars require the tire and wheel to be balanced after mounting on the car. By doing so, the shop is balancing the entire drive assembly on that side. Balancing the tire/wheel off the car after mounting a new tire is not adequate on those cars.

So what do the shop procedures for the affected vehicles actually call for?

 

[DuckRyder]

Some front-drive cars require the tire and wheel to be balanced after mounting on the car.

Example? Factory information Please.

 

[ekrampitzjr]

Example? Factory information Please.

Years ago some Toyota Camrys required this. Don't know about more recent models.

 

[WeyounDS9]

very few installers road force the tires prior to install.
And among those that do sadly not all really know how to do it right.
I recently had a set of Yokohamas which to my surpise were badly out of round all of them.
The program was lessened by a factor of two after I got new wheels.
but that may juyst be becaus the Chevy dealer to installed my tires on new ot me used ebay OEM wheels (which were better than what I ahd on the car) knew better what they were doing.

 

[CapriRacer]

Just to clear up a couple of points:

In the tire industry, there are standard machines which measure force variation. When you see an OEM specify a spec, that's what they are referring to.

Hunter uses the term RoadForce. That's because they are not using the same technique and it doesn't correlate to the industry standard machine. Put another way, when the tire manufacturer says a tire is a 15# tire, that doesn't mean the RoadForce is also 15#.

I wouldn't call what the OEM's specify for force variation as strict. (or tight!) Some are, but the vast majority are reasonable relative to what can be produced.

Yes, tire manufacturers have looser limits when it comes to aftermarket tires. But unless you're choosing a make/model tire that is being supplied to an OEM, there will be a whole range of values, not just high ones. Put another way, a non-OEM tire line will have zeros and some large values and everything in between.

The vehicles listed by the OP don't set off alarm bells with regard to Force Variation sensitivity.

What does strike me is that there are multiple vehicle and multiple tire manufacturers. I'm looking for a common denominator.

I am aware of a couple of interesting tidbits.

Tires can be mounted such that the assembly has an artificially high force variation. I've been able to reduce the value by 1/3 just by making sure there is enough mounting lube so the tire seats smoothly and evenly.

There is a really peculiar phenomenon, involving humans and their ability to sense vibrations. It seems we have a memory about what a vibration feels like and even when that vibration is eliminated, the irregularities in the road will make us think the vibration is still there. I became aware of this when I was chasing down vibration complaints and supplied a set of "Zero" tire/wheel assemblies and the customer claimed he could still feel the vibration. I've encountered that situation repeatedly. It's such a strange thing.

 

[Saxon78]

@OP I recently had the same experience (only once).

Take a look at Vredestein tyres , they are only made in Holland and Hungary.
It's an old Dutch brand, they seem to target luxury cars (they have even the rare sizes in their portfolio) and classic cars.
Performance , refinement and quality apart, most of their tyres are very stylish too (designed by Giugiaro)

And find a good tyre workshop.

 

[wpod]

I feel your pain. It seemed Michelins were the best as far as being round in my experiences.

I buy Michelins just because.