filter media defects/damage…

[Winston]

Pete has some background knowledge. He works for Wix.

I think the best format for the filter pics forum would be just like the used oil analysis forum. The topic would list the Brand of filter, engine type, mileage and even the oil wt and type. I think it should also include the geographic location in order to get some idea of the climate. I think the more data the better. Even if it cannot be confirmed.(pretty much nothing can be confirmed on a forum anyway)

 

[ZR2RANDO]

Labman,
Those Mann-Hummel elements look state-of-the art. As long as they are made as well as the picture looks, they will probably do very well. There are companies that make metal, and non-metal endplate filters very well, Wix doesn’t seem to have many problems with either one, there are other companies however that don’t seem to make either one very well.
Non-metal endplates work just fine and have been in use for a long time, new ideas can work just fine too as long as they make the trip from idea to production correctly. Cost cutting on the production line however can make that new idea a flop.
It would be great if we could make this a positive chain of posts. I have no interest in arguing with a wall here, much more would be gained being positive about it, by everybody, even those aghast at new ideas.

Good ideas Winston,
More data is great when it is available, pictures always show the damage though, however it is caused. The blaming and the bickering is what is holding everything back, and yes, there are lots of other folks on here that have a lot of background knowledge too.

[ May 19, 2005, 04:44 PM: Message edited by: ZR2RANDO ]

 

[TooSlick]

Labman,

My educated guess would be that the outer pleats are flexing back and forth, due to pressure pulses, and are failing due to high cycle fatigue. This may be why you are starting to see wire mesh used over the pleats in long life, microglass oil filters.

Take a piece of resin impregnated cardboard (celluose) and flex it back and forth along the same line. You can get it to fail or at least weaken with a relatively low # of cycles. There are probably millions of small pressure fluctuations in a 3000-5000 mile service interval.
Each pressure pulse will have the effect of flattening each of the outer pleats in the filter media. Anytime the oil pressure changes, the pleats will flex a bit and weaken the fibers in a localized area along the fold....

 

[Gary Allan]

My observations show that the shockwaves are generated upstream from the engine side of the media. Sure the increased flow comes from the pump ..but the bumper car backlash appears to work backwards. That,is there may be some bellows action occuring.

 

[y_p_w]

quote:

---

Originally posted by labman:
Interesting post y_p_w. More interesting yet to see how those aghast at new ideas without metal end caps react. Is it strictly a cartridge filter element, or will it be available as a spin on?

---

The end seems to be throughly bonded to the filtering material; it might even be melted until it fuses to the media. I don't know if the ends are hard or flexible.

As of now, they only seem to be available in cartridge filter kits. I wouldn't see why a similar media couldn't be placed into a can. They're pricey too, but not bad for up to a 25K mile change interval. Also - Mercedes offers no-cost maintenance during the warranty period.

I used the "clicky" feature so you guys didn't need to scroll to read my post!!

[ May 19, 2005, 10:01 PM: Message edited by: Gary Allan ]

 

[Filter guy]

Pete C.

Good posts.

But do not. Repeat..do not post in here about filter media efficiencies outside the US of A. That's best kept a filter industry secret..

Tooslick:
The reason for the wire screen that is used in microglass type medias is....otherwise there would be no way of keeping the media in a pleat shape.

If you cut open a new wire screen 100% sythentic element, cut the wire off and see for yourself..

-------------------

Something else to ponder about shock to the pleats or whatever..Automotive filters are generally 5" height cans or smaller.

What would you think would happen on an 11" height filter used on over the road trucks with paper media? 10 gallon oil sumps are the standard. Not a few quarts.

What type of loading on simple paper media happens in larger elements? And wouldn't the problems be easier to spot with more surface area?

 

[Pete C.]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Filter guy:


Something else to ponder about shock to the pleats or whatever..Automotive filters are generally 5" height cans or smaller.

What would you think would happen on an 11" height filter used on over the road trucks with paper media? 10 gallon oil sumps are the standard. Not a few quarts.

What type of loading on simple paper media happens in larger elements? And wouldn't the problems be easier to spot with more surface area?

---

To put it simply, nothing more than what happens in an automotive filter. Some automotive applications use the same media as Heavy Duty and vise-versa. Oil is oil is oil. The media doesn't give a hoot about where it is, only how much of it is comming through the filter inlet (flow depends on oil pump output, pressure depends on system resistance to flow). Thats why HD filters are bigger, there's more oil at a higher flow rate, to filter.

 

[Pete C.]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Filter guy:
Pete C.

Good posts.

But do not. Repeat..do not post in here about filter media efficiencies outside the US of A. That's best kept a filter industry secret..

---

Filter media supplier link,

http://www.ahlstrom.com/

Poke around here and maybe some of your ????'s can be answered.

Heck, If you ask them nice enough, they might send ya'll some samples. For free even.

[ May 20, 2005, 11:06 AM: Message edited by: Pete C. ]

 

[Filter guy]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pete C.:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Filter guy:


Something else to ponder about shock to the pleats or whatever..Automotive filters are generally 5" height cans or smaller.

What would you think would happen on an 11" height filter used on over the road trucks with paper media? 10 gallon oil sumps are the standard. Not a few quarts.

What type of loading on simple paper media happens in larger elements? And wouldn't the problems be easier to spot with more surface area?

---

To put it simply, nothing more than what happens in an automotive filter. Some automotive applications use the same media as Heavy Duty and vise-versa. Oil is oil is oil. The media doesn't give a hoot about where it is, only how much of it is comming through the filter inlet (flow depends on oil pump output, pressure depends on system resistance to flow). Thats why HD filters are bigger, there's more oil at a higher flow rate, to filter.

---

Pete..I know..

That was my point for those who ponder those dinky car filters and the problems they have.

And I also know the same grade media in some of the heavy duty applications is used in automotive which is why i mentioned that the same media would show the same "problems" in those big can filters.

Those filters protect engines that take $5-20,000 to repair. Use the same media. And yet I don't hear of the issues some in here seemingly think there are with automotive.

When I first went to Super Tech for my own car, the original media used in that filter was a premium sheet of media used in some heavy duty applications. But they're crap filters don't you know..

 

[ZR2RANDO]

For the benefit of any readers that haven’t seen these. For any of you that haven’t read through the old posts, maybe you can take this opportunity.


http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=002441;p=1
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=002476
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=002272;p=1
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=002272;p=1
http://groups.msn.com/OilFilterStudy/shoebox.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=31
http://groups.msn.com/OilFilterStudy/shoebox.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=37
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=002427

FG- “And yet I don't hear of the issues some in here seemingly think there are with automotive.”

I have included the links above to help you remember. You have heard of them, you just constantly deny there are any problems.

The Champ made Supertech filters do advertise that they use “synthetic blend” media, just like the Champ ecore does. If the media rips or tears during use or during manufacturing, (or if the end cap is not sealed) it is no better than anything else though.

FG- But they're crap filters don't you know..

You said it.

 

[Filter guy]

Rando..you are persistent. If somewhat misguided.

Super Tech is a Walmart brand.

They chose the name for their brand of filter.
It is up to Walmart to promote Super Tech, not Champ.

Walmart has available any technical data on the filter if they so choose to use it. But they don't.

Never think because someone spends thousands or multi millions on advertising ( including sponsoring race teams) that that somehow makes the media or filter better.

Who spends more on advertising and marketing Fram or Purolator? Which do you think is a better filter?

Walmart wanted and got a premium type performance media in a filter. If Walmart got into the promoting and advetising of the Super Tech brand, they would have to raise the price to cover their costs. They prefer to keep their price down for their customers and not promote the Super Tech filter.

But Walmart being Walmart..they attract certain attention from some types because of their corporate practices.


The Super Tech filter uses the same components as many brands Champ private labels. The Super Tech brand has better filter media than quite a number of other better known/advertised brands. I've stated before, some of the engineers as Champ use it on their personal vehicles. Why would they do that?
Don't they know of all these links in the BITOG forum? Or could it be they might know more than joe consumer about the performance, even on high mileage vehicles? The engineers at Champ may even have cut open one or two Super Tech filters over the course of time.

When I ran out of AC Delco Duraguard Gold for my Taurus...which was THE best filter on the market, imho... I called engineering to get their advice. They gave me some options. We discussed the benefits of various brands. I choose to use Super Tech. Even in spite of all your links.

Maybe if those who want to discuss Super Tech or Warner or any other brand gave us more information on the vehicle it was used on, then we can take a more analytical approach to pictures posted. Otherwise they are nothing more than like looking at a picture of a car crash and saying it was the cars fault...imo.

 

[ZR2RANDO]

Pictures without histories can help in 2 significant ways though:
From a customer standpoint, seeing the damage to a filter shows those potential weak spots that failed for whatever reason, especially if you see the same damage repeatedly. This helps when choosing what brand the customer wants to use.
From a manufacturer standpoint, it also shows those potential weak spots that failed for whatever reason, especially if it happens repeatedly. This shows the manufacturer the potential areas for change.

Sometimes knowing the cause of failure makes it too easy to make excuses for the product.

When you are doing some troubleshooting or forensics type work, you have to take the supporting evidence with a certain “grain of salt”. It may have made a contribution to the failure, and it may not have. You can waste lots of effort on chasing details that may not have had anything to do with the problem. The defects/damage that the filters show, at least shows the defects/damage done to the filter.

FG- It is up to Walmart to promote Super Tech, not Champ.
The Champ people told me about the media on the Super Tech filters, it does not disagree with what the box says.
FG- Otherwise they are nothing more than like looking at a picture of a car crash and saying it was the cars fault...imo.
Or in your case automatically blaming the driver.

I am just saying that you may not always know all the surrounding details, you may only know some of them, and some of them may be misleading, or at least noncontributory. You can at least see the damage done and depending on whether you are a consumer or a supplier, try to either look out for that type of construction, or try to improve on that type of construction.

 

[Filter guy]

Maybe you like looking at pictures and all you need to see is the results.

Filter companies in fact do a lot more anlysis of failed filters than you would ever expect.

Filter companies do extensive testing on products before consumers get the finished product. Not unlike what Mobil 1 has been doing for months before they choose what they want in their new filter coming out. They and Champ have over a million miles of test data. And the filters aren't on just new engines.

Engine companies do extensive testing such as hot weather, cold weather, endurance, etc.

But you've seen some pictures..the filter is crap..and that's all that matters.

Not whether the pressure regulating valve failed. Not that the vehicle has high mileage and has had poor maintenance. Not that the oil pan is full of sludge. Not that the owner has gone way beyond the change interval. Not that there might be water or coolant in the oil. Or any other possibility.

Nope..you've seen the pictures. That's enough for you.

But yet you want a filter company to build a bullet proof filter and when someone posts pics with NO data about it's use, somehow a filter company is supposed to mysteriously have a clue as to why the filter failed.

Accident investigators use more than a picture of a car crash to analyse what happened. And in the end it just might be driver error. But we will never know if a component of the car caused the crash without the data by just looking at a picture.

If all it took were pictures for filter companies ( or car companies) to know what went wrong, they might as well fire a bunch of useless engineers and sell off a bunch of test equipment. Somehow I doubt they will...

But at the end of the day..you can complain all you want, the filter meets or exceeded OEM specs.
Regardless of any picture posted. So something should tell you..even if you won't admit it..that all those years and years of test data by OEM's and filter companies under all kinds of conditions, that the OEM specs are designed to protect the engine under all kinds of conditions. So when a filter is not mismanufactured, the possibility of a correctly manufactured filter "causing" the problem is minute. It is the conditions the filter is exposed to that causes the filter to look like it does after it's use. Simple as that is.
Hard for you and others to take on board, apparently.

 

[XS650]

quote:

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Originally posted by Filter guy:
Maybe you like looking at pictures and all you need to see is the results.

Filter companies in fact do a lot more anlysis of failed filters than you would ever expect.

---

If filter companies were more forthcoming with their test results and design criteria, we wouldn't be doing our less than ideal personal evaluations of filter design and durability.

A load of unscientific observations shared and evaluated by amateurs with a little bit of experiance is far more meaningful and valuable that a "trust us" from a filter company.

quote:

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It is the conditions the filter is exposed to that causes the filter to look like it does after it's use. Simple as that is.
Hard for you and others to take on board, apparently.

---

That's because some of us have been around long enough and have enough experiance and technical knowledge to be hard to bullchit. Even by a highly experianced bullchitter.

 

[ZR2RANDO]

XS650,
My sentiments exactly,

I don’t even want to go back into the conversation about how things can be made “correctly” but just not work properly. They can be made to “design spec” and still be "made poorly", and perform poorly.
Some things just need to be said is the only reason I’ve gone this far with this, I just want BITOG readers to see more than just the
“blame the customer, the product is according to spec so it is good” thing again.
Even if it WAS up to spec (just you saying it is does not mean anything to me..) that does NOT mean it is good.
I’m done here.

 

[labman]

People with real technical knowledge and experience know better than to blindly accept simple, obvious answers. Especially if there are nagging data that just doesn't fit. Rational people that want to learn, examine them, rather than putting their creativity into bypassing the board filters to discredit the author.

 

[Gary Allan]

quote:

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I would also like to know why..

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I've gone over this with lube owner back channel and I truly believe that from his perspective ..it doesn't matter. It's not necessarily that he's denying us the data ..he's not interested in it to alter his action or opinion of the product.

Kinda like finding out your gf came down with a social ailment. You know it wasn't you ..and you aren't really interested in how it happened. You tell a friend and explain why you've broken off the relationship. Others want to know where she got it ..under what circumstances ..etc...but you're not interested in the details..which may have been totally innocent ..but she's damaged goods..you're not going to take the chance of being at risk again with her.


We're sitting here dating her sisters and some are wondering if the characteristic bahaviors are also hidden in them. Since we kinda like our relations with the current squeeze, we want to know more. Some of us have already moved on ...figuring it's not worth the risk ..even though there's no evidence that the same thing will happen to them. There are others that have better reputations ..they're more expensive to take out ..but they feel more self assured in going that route. Others are more commited to their current relationship and are going to wait before passing judgement.

Anyway, if we're lucky, lube owner will snag a couple of data points on a couple of filters so we can get a little perspective on this.

 

[Filter guy]

quote:

---

Originally posted by XS650:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Filter guy:
Maybe you like looking at pictures and all you need to see is the results.

Filter companies in fact do a lot more anlysis of failed filters than you would ever expect.

---

If filter companies were more forthcoming with their test results and design criteria, we wouldn't be doing our less than ideal personal evaluations of filter design and durability.

A load of unscientific observations shared and evaluated by amateurs with a little bit of experiance is far more meaningful and valuable that a "trust us" from a filter company.

quote:

---

It is the conditions the filter is exposed to that causes the filter to look like it does after it's use. Simple as that is.
Hard for you and others to take on board, apparently.

---

That's because some of us have been around long enough and have enough experiance and technical knowledge to be hard to bullchit. Even by a highly experianced bullchitter.

---

You, or others, can be skeptical all you want.

I pose these questions to the skeptics in here based on lubeowners pics, as it seems that is all the evidence you need.

Lubeowner says he has cut open hundreds and hundreds of filters...fair enough.

How does he know which filter came of which vehicle. He claims all filters are put on a drain drum. Then he, at the end of the day, gathers them up. At some point in time, maybe not the same day because he takes days off to go fishing, he cuts them open. So how does he know, with certainty, which filter came of which vehicle?

How many PH400's has he cut open? How many have been "poor" per his analysis after cutting the filter open? All of them? Half of them? Some of them? A few of them?

If it's not all of them, then why would the same filter brand/part number not show the "effects" as he describes in his complaints with the elements? What makes one filter look bad and another be "alright"?

His stock of filters are more than likely from the same date code as he buys cases at a time. So why would the very same media batch have a problem in one vehicle but not another? Interesting question, eh?


But without the data that many have requested and just looking at pictures..how can anyone say with any certainty why the filter pictured looked like it did and yet other customers of his not have the same problems?


I would also like to know why..

He refuses to give data when asked except in general terms and takes the "your questioning my integrity" when asked for data?

I would also like to know why..he's complained he can't be bothered with aquiring the data because he doesn't have the time..yet when I offer my unemployed son who lives within 20 minutes or so of his lube shop to take a day or two to do the paperwork of aquiring the data per the filter removed and verifying the data per filter cut open and help cut filters open for analysis..he refuses the help.

Not to mention my offer of me personally coming over the end of september and helping to look at what he sees when he cuts filters open. What's he afraid of?

I'd also like to know why... he can't be bothered to follow up on the filters he claims he sent his distributor who sent him a call tag for them and he said he would tell us what the report from Champ said. Are you not curious about knowing?? I am.

Like any other time i've ask these questions..I doubt i'll get straight answers.

 

[Filter guy]

As lubeowner is the main focus because of his pictures which show problems with the media, does anyone else wonder why other posters in here seemingly have no problems with their media?


Now people in here have congratulated lubeowner for his decision to switch brands of filters for his customers. It was not a decision taken lightly by him.

By using filters that cost him more money, I assume his cost increases will be past on to his customers. The question lubeowner had to wrestle with is how many of his customers would stay loyal and how many would go down the road to a more price competitive lube shop?

However, we never did get specific data on the filters pictured.

So my question is, has lubeowner missed the opportunity to educate his customers?

Suppose he had a Warner filter similar to those pictured with the open pleat spacing but undamaged that was changed off a vehicle at near the 3,000 mile recommended change interval.

Then when Oregonian soccer mom comes in to change her oil. She's gone 5,000 miles between oil changes. He cuts her filter open and he shows her some "damage".

Has he not missed the opportunity to explain the need to change oil at the recommended interval and if she doesn't this is what could happen to the filter?

Soccer mom would probably appreciate the advise and come back to his shop at the 3,000 mile change interval.

He keeps a customer who over the next 60,000 miles of owning her vehicle will visit his shop 20 times..every 3,000 miles.

Or he switches brands and hopes that does the job. And she comes back every 5,000 miles or so which means he see's her 12 more times over 60,000 miles.

He has or had the potential to get 8 more changes out of his customer by reinforcing the maintenance interval and showing his customer that their driving style along with extended drain intervals was probably the reason for the filter looking like it did.

He could have remained price competitive in his market area. Which may mean he keeps those customers who come to him because of price and he has the ability to educate them based on their preference of spending less. That they can pay less if they maintain their cars as specified by the OEM. Or they can pay more for a filter and have that "extra" safety factor ( and hope that solves the problem.).

As always, it's a consumers choice.


Which is why the data is important to determine what conditions the filter "failed".

One can not change their maintenance habits if they don't recognize what causes the problem. Nor can a filter company change the construction of an element if they don't know certain criteria as to what may have caused the problem.

 

[Brian Barnhart]

Filter Guy,

Keep in mind that some of lubeowners pics did have some vehicle and oil mileage data. It’s not fair to claim he has no knowledge about any of the pictured filters he has cut open.

Then there’s…

quote:

---

Suppose he had a Warner filter similar to those pictured with the open pleat spacing but undamaged that was changed off a vehicle at near the 3,000 mile recommended change interval.

Then when Oregonian soccer mom comes in to change her oil. She's gone 5,000 miles between oil changes. He cuts her filter open and he shows her some "damage".

Has he not missed the opportunity to explain the need to change oil at the recommended interval and if she doesn't this is what could happen to the filter?

Soccer mom would probably appreciate the advise and come back to his shop at the 3,000 mile change interval.

---

Perhaps soccer mom is smarter than you give her credit for. Maybe she knows that under her driving conditions, the 5000 mile interval is within the manufacturer’s recommendations for OCI. So, instead of switching to a 3000 mile OCI and going on the oil filter plant tour, she chooses to use another oil change shop that uses a different filter.