Fetus-Rights Bill

[Al]

O.K. Social Security is broke, Medicare is broke, Immigration is broke, the country is swimming in red ink, jobs are going overseas, we have an energy shortage, terrorists are trying to kill us. Kerry is running for president.

Yet in the midst of all these seemingly unsolvable problems-we have time for this lunacy. Unbelievable

Fetus Protection

 

[sbc350gearhead]

Definately a quagmire. If a guy finds out his girlfriend is pregnant and she wants to have the kid against his wishes...........so he punches her in the stomach, and makes her lose the child. Is that "night is jail and 250 fine" assault.........or murder. If it is murder........then so is abortion. No other way to look at it.

 

[Asinine]

"no other way to look at it"

Those simple words are why we have all the problems listed above.

 

[keith]

I believe that the pro abortion position is in a sense consistent. The MOTHER has the right to carry the baby to term or kill it. Not the father, he has no rights. So if the mother wants to kill the baby, as late as seconds before natural childbirth, that is acceptable (except not now by so called "partial birth abortion" which is a polite way of saying to suck out the babies brain through a straw). But if the father intervenes and kills the baby, that is not acceptable. Clear now? Me neither!

If the baby is born against the fathers wishes, he is still on the hook for a lifetime of child support.

Seems to me to be a pretty lopsided situation, no matter the merits of abortion killing.

Keith.

 

[sbc350gearhead]

Once again Asinine......if you are going to make comments like that, you are going to have to change your name. It's just tooooooo easy.

 

[sbc350gearhead]

quote:

---

Originally posted by keith:
I believe that the pro abortion position is in a sense consistent. The MOTHER has the right to carry the baby to term or kill it. Not the father, he has no rights. So if the mother wants to kill the baby, as late as seconds before natural childbirth, that is acceptable (except not now by so called "partial birth abortion" which is a polite way of saying to suck out the babies brain through a straw). But if the father intervenes and kills the baby, that is not acceptable. Clear now? Me neither!

If the baby is born against the fathers wishes, he is still on the hook for a lifetime of child support.

Seems to me to be a pretty lopsided situation, no matter the merits of abortion killing.

Keith.

---

Yeah I forgot about the ******* way to look at it. DOH!!!! it slipped. Too easy I tell ya! Just no fun in it.

 

[labman]

I struggled with the question of abortion for a long time. Finally I realized it is bumping somebody off because they are inconvenient. If society sanctioned that for the born, I would have been gone, a long time ago. How can anyone deny killing a wanted child before it is born is murder?

That does raise questions about unwanted children. I feel very strongly abortion is wrong, but the solution is changing peoples hearts, not our laws.

 

[Chris B.]

I'm against it as well! It is just plain wrong and immoral!

 

[Bob Woods]

I too had a liberal view on abortion until I starting working on Medical Ultrasound units. When you can see just how early the fetus looks like a human being, with arms legs a face even in the first month its hard to call it something other than life. But I don't believe in outlawing abortion as there are times when it is medically prudent. Plus abortionists would operate in unclean back rooms and that would led to even more problems. Labman said it right,"I feel very strongly abortion is wrong, but the solution is changing peoples hearts, not our laws."

 

[XS650]

quote:

---

....
That does raise questions about unwanted children. I feel very strongly abortion is wrong, but the solution is changing peoples hearts, not our laws. [/QB]

---

Some times you right wingers make sense

 

[Forkman]

quote:

---

Originally posted by XS650:

quote:

---

....
That does raise questions about unwanted children. I feel very strongly abortion is wrong, but the solution is changing peoples hearts, not our laws.

---

Some times you right wingers make sense

[/QB]

---

I think the first thing we need to do is try to get everyone on the same page in terms of the desireablity of abortion... Regardless of whether one thinks that abortion is ultimately right or wrong, it'd certainly be nice if people on both sides of the issue could agree that abortion is the least desireable of all possible outcomes.

This is not meant to offend anyone I'm simply stating how I perceive certain things... but it seems that those on the pro-choice side, the really hard core true believers that is and not just those who fall on the side of pro-choice, don't think that abortion is necessarily an undesireable outcome and should be the choice of last resort when other options such as preventing the pregnancy, adoption, or heaven forbid actually raising the child aren't possible or realistic.

 

[Shannow]

My firm belief is that the second a sperm makes contact with the egee, then the embryo/fetus is a human being, and deserves the rights that any human should have. But I also temper that with the rights of, say, a rape victim, and actually would not want to prevent people in that circumstance from aborting.

Entirely inconsistent, I know.

There have been a couple of legal cases down here that are a joke.

One, a father punched the woman in the stomach, with the intent to cause a termination of a 22 week fetus. He succeeded, the Police went murder, the courts (seeing the abortion issue) allowed Assault occasioning bodily harm (harm to the mother). That, I thought would set the precedent, and thus the law.

Two, a drunk driver crashed into a car, which caused the termination of a 22 week fetus. He went to Jail for murder.

You can't play both sides of the same coin.

 

[needtoknow]

The fight for abortion rights was a long and hard one and I think led to too little consideration for all of the reasons why a women might want one. Abortion should not be used as a convenient birth control method. But of course the extremists won't compromise and only want to consider it a black/white issue. The same people fighting abortion are also the same people who fight sex ed in the schools and access and education for birth control. This bill is another step to getting abortion completely banned and relegated to the back allies again.

 

[Al]

quote:

---

Originally posted by needtoknow:
The fight for abortion rights was a long and hard one and I think led to too little consideration for all of the reasons why a women might want one. Abortion should not be used as a convenient birth control method. But of course the extremists won't compromise and only want to consider it a black/white issue. The same people fighting abortion are also the same people who fight sex ed in the schools and access and education for birth control. This bill is another step to getting abortion completely banned and relegated to the back allies again.

---

One of those rare rare times that I agree with you. The subject will always be a nuclear grade issue.

I always found it odd that the Republicans are dead set against abortion but have less interest in providing welfare to moms having too many children than the Democrats. Democrats want to take care of all the kids and moms yet support abortion. I just find it interestingly strange.

 

[Gary Allan]

quote:

---

Labman said it right,"I feel very strongly abortion is wrong, but the solution is changing peoples hearts, not our laws."

---

My take on it is that, although the thought of something like the life of one of my beautiful children being snuffed out with less hassle than it is to get a drivers license is shameful and sad, I don't have the right to inhibit that action UNLESS I'M WILLING TO RAISE THAT CHILD.

Most Pro-lifers talk the talk ..but few walk the walk. Their goals appear to be to have that child born ..and then they conveniently turn into Pontius Pilate and wash their hands of any responsibility.

This status would change if they made affordable or free adoptions (don't insult me with "non-profit") for loving families that can't afford the $30,000 that a foreign child costs in fees. Check them out ..the Catholic adoption services ..any of them. They make it only available to the rich.

Take the Alaskan seal slaughter. It's sad ..it's unforturnate ..but no one who protests wants to give those natives an alternative income.

If you're pro-life ..I think that you should put your soul and money where your mouth is.

For every pro-life lawyer that provides free adoption services (as in really FREE).

Stand forth and be proclaimed a champion of the unborn.

For every prolife doctor who will provide FREE medical care to an otherwise aborted child..

Stand forth and be proclaimed a champion of the unborn.

For every pro-life congregation that funds the life of an otherwise aborted child.

Stand forth and be proclaimed champions of the unborn.

For every household that will vollentarily reduce their existance to a life of econo-brand mac and cheese for the opportunity to raise one more child...

Stand forth and be proclaimed a champion of the unborn.

As you can see ...many have opinions of what "others" are to do about this...

..but few have the depth of conviction to "walk the walk".

[ March 26, 2004, 11:20 AM: Message edited by: Gary Allan ]

 

[JohnnyO]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Al:
I always found it odd that the Republicans are dead set against abortion but have less interest in providing welfare to moms having too many children than the Democrats.

---

Thing is, people on welfare aren't the ones getting most abortions. I saw a study that showed the largest demographic getting abortions are middle-class white women.

Gets back to the convenience and birth control issue.
My personal position is that I don't like it but regrettably the Supreme Court has found it legal, and you'll never get enough votes for a Constitutional ammendment.

 

[Al]

quote:

---

Originally posted by JohnnyO:

Originally posted by Al:
[qb] Thing is, people on welfare aren't the ones getting most abortions. I saw a study that showed the largest demographic getting abortions are middle-class white women.

Gets back to the convenience and birth control issue.

---

People get abortions for various reasons. The chief reason is that they don't want to or can't aford to raise another child. (Yes you can call it convenience and you can call it murder) And as needtoknow observed-overturning the law will lead to deaths in the back alleys-for both the fetus and mother. Anyway no-one on this forum will have their mind changed. And no-one will learn anything he didn't know before.

To me Gary Allen said it best"Most Pro-lifers talk the talk ..but few walk the walk. Their goals appear to be to have that child born ..and then they conveniently turn into Pontius Pilate and wash their hands of any responsibility."

 

[Bob Woods]

Originally posted by Al:
I always found it odd that the Republicans are dead set against abortion but have less interest in providing welfare to moms having too many children than the Democrats.

I find it oximoronic that those who oppose abortion favor the death penalty, and those who oppose the death penalty favor abortion rights.

 

[needtoknow]

My wife has been a Labor & Delivery RN as well as a Neonatal Nurse for about 30 years. She gets to see a lot of horrendous problems with malformed and health compromised babies. These babies are born to many different families of many different means. Many of the families are forced to care for these sick children but do not have any resources to do so. They also don't get a lot of church groups knocking on their door offering 24/7 help. She finds the decision to allow a child to die (stopping care) is always a difficult and emotional process. I think it should never be easy but neither should it be banned. On the other side she also sees poor people clinging to god for a miracle while the taxpayer (works in State Hosp) puts a $million+ into the care to maintain the baby's life beyond all hope.

[ March 26, 2004, 02:10 PM: Message edited by: needtoknow ]

 

[keith]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bob Woods:
Originally posted by Al:
I always found it odd that the Republicans are dead set against abortion but have less interest in providing welfare to moms having too many children than the Democrats.

I find it oximoronic that those who oppose abortion favor the death penalty, and those who oppose the death penalty favor abortion rights.

---

There is no way that all republicans are against abortion, or all democrats favor abortion. Life isn't that convenient. Colin Powell is in a very senior position wouldn't you say? He supports a womans right to choose, and has not been prevented from speaking at the republican conventions (unlike pro life democrats who are not welcome at their conventions).

I have no problem with the death penalty, but understand there are those opposed. We certainly should differentiate between a murderer criminal and an unborn baby! Advocating equal treatment for both doesn't make any sense to me.

Keith.