Feast your mind on this.

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JGW

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I found this to be an interesting read.

http://ferrarichat.com/forum/faq.php?s=2...otor_oil_basics

Just a small excerpt
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"Please forget those numbers on the oil can. They really should be letters as AW-M, BW-N or CW-P. The fact that we are dealing with a system of numbers on the can makes people think that they represent the viscosity of the oil inside the can. The problem is that the viscosity of oil varies with its temperature. A “30” grade oil has a viscosity of 3 at 302 F ( 150 C ) and thickens to 10 at 212 F ( 100 C ). It further thickens to a viscosity of 100 at 104 F ( 40 C ) and is too thick to measure at the freezing point of 32 F ( 0 C ).

Oils are divided into grades (not weights) such as a 20, 30 or 40 grade oils. This represents the viscosity range at operating temperature. But it is NOT the actual viscosity as we shall see. The issue is that viscosity is temperature dependent. Let’s look at a 30 grade oil and how the viscosity of this grade of oil varies with temperature:

30 grade oil (often referred to as a 30 “weight” oil):

Temperature ( F )....Thickness

302...........................3
212..........................10
104..........................100
32..........................250 (rough estimate)

The automotive designers usually call for their engines to run at 212 F oil and water temperature with an oil thickness of 10. This is the viscosity of the oil, not the weight or grade as labeled on the oil can. I want to stay away from those numbers as they are confusing. We are talking about oil thickness, not oil can labeling. This will be discussed later. Forget the numbers on that oil can for now. We are only discussing the thickness of the oil that the engine requires during normal operating conditions.

The engine is designed to run at 212 F at all external temperatures from Alaska to Florida. You can get in your car in Florida in September and drive zig-zag to Alaska arriving in November. The best thing for your engine would be that it was never turned off, you simply kept driving day and night. The oil thickness would be uniform, it would always be 10. In a perfect world the oil thickness would be 10 at all times and all temperatures.

If the thickness of oil was 10 when you got in your car in the morning and 10 while driving it would be perfect. You would not have to warm up your engine. You could just get in the car and step on the gas. There would be little wear and tear on you engine, almost none. Unfortunately the world is not perfect.

The night before when you drove home from work the car was up to the correct operating temperature and the oil was the correct thickness, 10. Over night the engine cooled to room temperature and the oil thickened. It is 75 F in the morning now (I do live in Florida). The oil thickness is now around 150. It is too thick to lubricate an engine designed to run with an oil having a thickness of 10.

It is time to introduce the concept of lubrication. Most believe that pressure = lubrication. This is false. Flow = lubrication. If pressure was the thing that somehow lubricated your engine then we would all be using 90 grade oil. Lubrication is used to separate moving parts, to keep them from touching. There is a one to one relationship between flow and separation. If you double the flow you will double the separation pressure in a bearing. The pressure at the bearing entrance is irrelevant.

In fact the relationship between pressure and flow is in opposition. If you change your oil to a thicker formula the pressure will go up. It goes up because the resistance to flow is greater and in fact the flow must go down in order for the pressure to go up. They are inversely related. Conversely if you choose a thinner oil then the pressure will go down. This can only occur if the flow has increased."
 
Where would you start to explain to this guy everything that he has wrong?

Fortunately he is not making any recommendations for oil to put in an engine.
 
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"Where would you start to explain to this guy everything that he has wrong?"

Right here suits me just fine.

"Fortunately he is not making any recommendations for oil to put in an engine."

Actually, he does.
 
The excerpt didn't really read that bad, but he seems to oversimplify things in a way that doesn't really make it easier to understand but that's not "wrong."

Everything's a tradeoff. Flow is a tradeoff for pressure. But getting more flow is only good to a certain point. Universally choosing flow over pressure is a bad idea, but that seems to be the recommendation here.

I think everyone would agree the current way oil's are rated is terrible. But I'm not sure of a way that would be both better and easier to understand. I mean, if you just do what the manufacturer recommends what could be easier than that? Better to me would be HTHS and an oils VI and some sort of efficiency rating, but the changeover to a system like that would be a nightmare.
 
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Dr. Hass has been a very important and well respected member of BITOG for years. If you search in our technical info you would find this paper. IMO he has done more to change my thinking about the viscosity needs of an engine than any other technical work done here. I was a '10w-40' guy (now 0w-20, 5w-20) for many years before I found BITOG five years ago. You may have to rethink viscosity as you know it, but don't dismiss Dr. Hass' disertation out of hand. FWIW==Oldtommy
 
Well, you can credit Dr. Hass but realistically I think the Honda and Ford engineers who petitioned the EPA have done more than anything to promote lighter oils in your use and anyones. Seriously, if they had not done that and one couldn't find 20 weight oils at mass merchandisers, and couldn't find a critical mass of internet posters who had success with them, there is no way you would be running them based on the recommendation of one user regardless of how much they had written.

The problem I have with the excerpt at least is that it appears to read as though flow is the solution to all ills. I wouldn't want to see someone running a 0w-20 in their 70's muscle car or Peterbuilt that's for sure. But as far as I know the writer goes into more detail on that, or perhaps it's specific to ferarris.
 
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Note to self: search new forum before posting 'breaking news'

just kidding

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Originally Posted By: JGW
To me it was breaking news...


In fairness, to a lot of people, it still is breaking news. Dr. Haas's understanding of oils is far from perfect. It is still leaps and bounds above that of the average mechanic or parts person. Heck, I've had parts guys tell me that 0w-40 is too thin for the summer and that I should use 10w30 instead. These are guys that supply oil change shops and garages.

It seems odd to me that a plastic surgeon has taken more time to learn about oil than those people that deal with it everyday. Imagine if the situation were reversed, where a parts person or mechanic knew more about plastic surgery than Dr. Haas.

I can understand the kid at Walmart not knowing the difference between PU and RP HPS. The owner of the parts shop - not so much.
 
It's so simple - why make it complicated with needlessly long papers?

It's all about temperatures.
A 5-20 can be thicker than a 20-50.

Done.
 
Originally Posted By: A_Harman


Where would you start to explain to this guy everything that he has wrong?

+1. Dr. Ali E. Haas is a cosmetic plastic surgeon from Florida. Some of what he says about oil is good, and some is just his conjecture. Maybe he can afford to experiment with viscosities very different from what the maker of his engine recommends, but I don't want to do that. One huge technical hole in his writings is that he never mentions (that I've found) the critically important hydrodynamic wedge of oil created by the rotation of the journal in the bearing. THIS is what keeps the parts apart. Not flow. Not pressure. Pressure makes the oil flow. Flow brings in new, filtered, cooled oil to replace the oil that leaks out of the bearings. And, other things remaining equal, viscosity relates to film strength of the oil; thinner oil has less film strength. It is just about that simple.
 
Originally Posted By: Ken2
Originally Posted By: A_Harman


Some of what he says about oil is good, and some is just his conjecture. Maybe he can afford to experiment with viscosities very different from what the maker of his engine recommends, but I don't want to do that. One huge technical hole in his writings is that he never mentions (that I've found) the critically important hydrodynamic wedge of oil created by the rotation of the journal in the bearing. THIS is what keeps the parts apart. Not flow. Not pressure. Pressure makes the oil flow. Flow brings in new, filtered, cooled oil to replace the oil that leaks out of the bearings. And, other things remaining equal, viscosity relates to film strength of the oil; thinner oil has less film strength. It is just about that simple.

One incorrect conclusion of what the good Doctor writes is that he "can afford to experiment with viscosities very different from what the manufacturer recommends".

The truth is he is doing nothing of the sort.
First he is running bio-ester based engine oil that is only somewhat lighter than what's spec'd.
The RLI 0W-20 he runs in the Lambo has a HTHSV of 3.0-3.3cP which is really a light 30wt oil and the RLI 0w30 he runs in his Enzo has a HTHSV of 3.6-3.8cP which better thought of as a light 40wt oil.

He also has oil pressure and oil temperature gauges in both cars so he know exactly what the operational viscosity is at any given time. An oil pressure gauge indicates the back pressure level or resistance to oil flow through an engine, it therefore is a good proxy for the oil's viscosity which varies with temperature.
He drives conservatively and by all accounts hasn't comes close to testing the minimum oil pressure requirements for either engine. The Enzo btw has never seen oil temp's over 82C.
So the thought that he is in some ways taking chances with his expensive toys couldn't be further from the truth.

What should one take away from what Ali Haas writes?
That all motor oil is thicker than necessary, even the lightest 0W-20 on start-up and until you get a good amount of heat in it to lighten it up further and you may be able to run a lighter oil than specified if you drive conservatively.
And to know if you can run a lighter than spec' oil you should have an oil pressure gauge equipped vehicle as he does.

I realize he doesn't emphasize the last point and it is one of my criticisms in addition to being overly simplistic but the message of what he says is fundamentally correct.
 
Interesting reading ...
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any thoughts or recommendations for a lower viscosity oil in an air-cooled engine? Current oil is Mobil 1 15w50
 
Depends what you do with your air cooled engine.

And whether it has multiple heat exchangers to control temperatures, and you are using it at 1/10 or 11/10
 
Had not seen this one before. I'm not going to assume that the whole article is 100% correct, but there's certainly some good points there. Definately worth reading if you find yourself with some extra time.

Thanks.
 
I love the way people get on here and start questioning the accuracy and correctness of the proven research of a doctor who has studied the very basic fundamentals of fluid flow.

He didn't get this knowledge through armchair research on BITOG, he has done 'real' research on blood flow dynamics in the human body while being a medical doctor.

Mr. Haas has more education, knowledge, and general smarts than 9/10's of the people on the board. I can't believe people on here call him out when he knows more than they ever will - it's really quite comical!
 
Originally Posted By: Flatsix911
Interesting reading ...
smile.gif


any thoughts or recommendations for a lower viscosity oil in an air-cooled engine? Current oil is Mobil 1 15w50

Install an oil pressure gauge and choose you're oil viscosity based on the minimum optimum OP when the oil is as hot as it normally gets. In all likelyhood for normal street useage you should be able to run a 5w30 without issue, but an OP gauge will tell you if you can.
 
Originally Posted By: addyguy
I love the way people get on here and start questioning the accuracy and correctness of the proven research of a doctor who has studied the very basic fundamentals of fluid flow.

He didn't get this knowledge through armchair research on BITOG, he has done 'real' research on blood flow dynamics in the human body while being a medical doctor.

Mr. Haas has more education, knowledge, and general smarts than 9/10's of the people on the board. I can't believe people on here call him out when he knows more than they ever will - it's really quite comical!


There is very little correlation to oil viscosities at different temps and the human circulatory system. You attribute too much to him on oil subjects.
Dr. HAAS is just plain wrong on a number of points.
 
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