For a while now I have been listen to people explain away copper as oil cooler related but that does not wash! ALmost no one I do not know any but I am sure their might be one automotive OEM that still use's copper for anything cooling related. Copper prices are too high this is why the rad,condenser,and all other coolers or radiators are made from aluminum it is about cost!SO time to find a new excuse or link for copper!Cam bearings in Detroit OHV enignes are about the last place I can think that would have copper.Maybe some bronze in the rod ends ie bronze bushings or maybe a thrust washer or some place in the oil pump but those are just guess's? I have 5 Toytoa in my drivway and a Buick and I worked for GM for 7 years and I do not recall ever seeing a copper oil cooler OEM on anything. Eventhe lines are not copper!
False Copper Explanation for most?
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Not to mention the significant extra weight of the copper compared to aluminum.
A typical gm small block v8 engine is full of babbit bearings though (con-rod, crankshaft and cam). A typical babbit bearing consists of approximately 4-10% copper and the rest (for the most part) is tin. I'm guessing this is where the copper is coming from. Maybe inside the oil pump (I've never taken one apart). I can confirm that based on my GM trucks (my last 3) GM uses Tru-cool stacked plate aluminum coolers and steel and aluminum cooler lines.
I haven't had a japanese engine open before either, but Honda 3.0 - 3.7L v6's throw alot of copper early in their lives just like gm LS series v8s. It won't be from the cams as those sit in journal bearings that machine right out of the casting of the cylinder heads, so it has to be coming from the con-rod and crankshaft babbit bearings. Honda also uses the very same tru-cool aluminum stacked plate coolers as GM.
I agree with JB that it's not coming from the coolers.
A typical gm small block v8 engine is full of babbit bearings though (con-rod, crankshaft and cam). A typical babbit bearing consists of approximately 4-10% copper and the rest (for the most part) is tin. I'm guessing this is where the copper is coming from. Maybe inside the oil pump (I've never taken one apart). I can confirm that based on my GM trucks (my last 3) GM uses Tru-cool stacked plate aluminum coolers and steel and aluminum cooler lines.
I haven't had a japanese engine open before either, but Honda 3.0 - 3.7L v6's throw alot of copper early in their lives just like gm LS series v8s. It won't be from the cams as those sit in journal bearings that machine right out of the casting of the cylinder heads, so it has to be coming from the con-rod and crankshaft babbit bearings. Honda also uses the very same tru-cool aluminum stacked plate coolers as GM.
I agree with JB that it's not coming from the coolers.
Does copper have more of a tendency to show up in oil than aluminum? It seems that *if* high copper was caused by copper parts in the cooling system then the replacement aluminum would cause high aluminum to show up.
Kestas
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Originally Posted By: Jim 5
Not to mention the significant extra weight of the copper compared to aluminum.
Not so! Compared with aluminum, copper is stronger and more efficient in transferring heat, making copper heat exchangers smaller and lighter than aluminum heat exchangers for the same BTU.
http://www.copper.org/applications/automotive/radiators/no_flux.html#misconceptions
Not to mention the significant extra weight of the copper compared to aluminum.
Not so! Compared with aluminum, copper is stronger and more efficient in transferring heat, making copper heat exchangers smaller and lighter than aluminum heat exchangers for the same BTU.
http://www.copper.org/applications/automotive/radiators/no_flux.html#misconceptions
I can tell you with certainty that the oil cooler on my 2008 Subaru Legacy GT is copper. This is a liquid to liquid cooler.
Ed
Ed
Originally Posted By: JohnBrowning
I worked for GM for 7 years and I do not recall ever seeing a copper oil cooler OEM on anything. Eventhe lines are not copper!
I thought you were a supplier to GM. That's like a dealership employee saying they work for GM when they really work for the dealership owner.
In any case, you are correct - I have not seen a copper cooler on any late GM's.
I worked for GM for 7 years and I do not recall ever seeing a copper oil cooler OEM on anything. Eventhe lines are not copper!
I thought you were a supplier to GM. That's like a dealership employee saying they work for GM when they really work for the dealership owner.
In any case, you are correct - I have not seen a copper cooler on any late GM's.
OVERKILL
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I was under the impression that the LS1 F-bodies and the 'vette both had copper oil coolers? Hence the explanation for their "high copper" used oil analysis.........
Could be, but all the GM trucks with the LS based v8's I've ever seen had tru-cool stacked plate aluminum coolers from the factory. They all spit copper early in their lives too. I'm betting on bearing materials.
OVERKILL
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But copper isn't the top layer in a tri-metal bearing.....
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
But copper isn't the top layer in a tri-metal bearing.....
Plus there was a recent UOA of a V6 Toyota that spit a lot of copper breaking in. I still wonder if an oil sending unit, crank sensor, or some other such source might leach some copper during break in.
But copper isn't the top layer in a tri-metal bearing.....
Plus there was a recent UOA of a V6 Toyota that spit a lot of copper breaking in. I still wonder if an oil sending unit, crank sensor, or some other such source might leach some copper during break in.
I've got 48k on my 6.0L Sierra Denali truck and it still shows rather high copper. Just got my latest UOA yesterday and it is sitting at 68 copper, down from 78 before and the high of 176 when new at 3,000 miles. Blackstone says that I'm okay so I'm not worried. I don't know where the copper is coming from but I am curious and will talk to my GM Powertrain rep to see if he can dig some info for me. FWIW I've run M1 in it since new EXCEPT this last change has PP in it and I'm going to do another UOA to see if it is oil related. As I posted a short time ago, I'll let you all know if the PP changed the copper levels.
OVERKILL
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I'm wondering if GM uses a copper gasket sealer somewhere in the engines.....
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