Isn't phosphorus the main ingredient in most detergents - as in laundry or dish detergent?
Extreme Engine Failure: Phosphorus
- Thread starter md_lucky_13
- Start date
- Status
Sounds to me like a substance other than oil was added to this engine. The description of the end product reminds me of what corn syrup does when heated. Thickens and carmelizes, which might explain the filter clog. The question would then be who and how.
Yup thats the easy way.Quote:
The body is removed from the frame... to swap out an engine?
Am I reading this correctly?
Good luck, md_lucky_13. I used Terry recently for a very similar situation in our fleet and found his service well worth the price (it's more than the run-of-the-mill $50 when he's doing professional work like this).
I wonder whether you're on the same side of Idaho as I am? I hope if we have need of dealer service we'll figure out where to go.
P.S. If it was up to me, I'd think the fertilizer thing is unlikely because I'd have thought that any prills would have solids in them (clays and such). Though, I suppose there is no solids measurement on that report...
I wonder whether you're on the same side of Idaho as I am? I hope if we have need of dealer service we'll figure out where to go.
P.S. If it was up to me, I'd think the fertilizer thing is unlikely because I'd have thought that any prills would have solids in them (clays and such). Though, I suppose there is no solids measurement on that report...
Quote:
Yup thats the easy way.Quote:
The body is removed from the frame... to swap out an engine?
Am I reading this correctly?
I'd love to see pictures of how that is done. Yikes!
Any news to report here? Any new oil analysis to share?
Not much news to report at this time.
There was a stretch there where no one wanted to step up to the plate and pay for the analysis. The insurance company took the stance that it isn't their problem to prove something happened, but they would repair it if something did happen and it could be proven. Ford looked at the engine and said it wasn't caused by manufactoring defects or failed Fomoco parts (duh?) so they wouldn't warranty the engine. I ended up footing the bill for now, but should get reimbursed assuming they find something. So find something Terry!!
I still cannot come up with any more ideas either. The laundry detergent is a good one. But I still imagine they would find other things in the oil too.. And they claim they couldn't find ANY foreign substance other then the phosphorus.
Yeah, with all the new stuff going into these vehicles, it is often a lot easier to work on them with the body off the chasis. Pretty much every repair description for the new 6.4 diesel begins with "step 1: remove body from frame. step 2: throughouly cover arms in vasoline."
I will continue to post updates as they come.
There was a stretch there where no one wanted to step up to the plate and pay for the analysis. The insurance company took the stance that it isn't their problem to prove something happened, but they would repair it if something did happen and it could be proven. Ford looked at the engine and said it wasn't caused by manufactoring defects or failed Fomoco parts (duh?) so they wouldn't warranty the engine. I ended up footing the bill for now, but should get reimbursed assuming they find something. So find something Terry!!
I still cannot come up with any more ideas either. The laundry detergent is a good one. But I still imagine they would find other things in the oil too.. And they claim they couldn't find ANY foreign substance other then the phosphorus.
Yeah, with all the new stuff going into these vehicles, it is often a lot easier to work on them with the body off the chasis. Pretty much every repair description for the new 6.4 diesel begins with "step 1: remove body from frame. step 2: throughouly cover arms in vasoline."
I will continue to post updates as they come.
If you look up the ingredients of detergent, phosphates were used in the 60's and maybe early 70's that everyone remembers, but due to what they were doing to rivers and streams phosphates were banned in many states so it should be pretty hard to find a high phosphate detergent these days. Though maybe some other type of soap or industrial detergent could be found that uses phosphate softeners. From
http://sci-toys.com/ingredients/detergents.html
Straight-chain detergents don't work in hard water. Phosphates were added to detergents to soften the water, but phosphates are excellent fertilizer for algae in rivers and oceans. The algae blooms deplete the oxygen in the water, killing fish. Phosphates were replaced with other water softeners such as sodium carbonate and EDTA.
Later, surface-acting polyglucosides were created. These sugar-based detergents are easily broken down by microbes, leaving no traces in the environment. They consist of a pair of glucose molecules, with hydrocarbon side chains attached to act as the hydrophobic ends. They are milder than soaps, and work in hard water.
Also from here, http://www.laundry-alternative.com/detergent_chemistry.htm
Note: The major laundry detergent manufacturers no longer use phosphates in their formulations.
http://sci-toys.com/ingredients/detergents.html
Straight-chain detergents don't work in hard water. Phosphates were added to detergents to soften the water, but phosphates are excellent fertilizer for algae in rivers and oceans. The algae blooms deplete the oxygen in the water, killing fish. Phosphates were replaced with other water softeners such as sodium carbonate and EDTA.
Later, surface-acting polyglucosides were created. These sugar-based detergents are easily broken down by microbes, leaving no traces in the environment. They consist of a pair of glucose molecules, with hydrocarbon side chains attached to act as the hydrophobic ends. They are milder than soaps, and work in hard water.
Also from here, http://www.laundry-alternative.com/detergent_chemistry.htm
Note: The major laundry detergent manufacturers no longer use phosphates in their formulations.
What happens when you mix a phosphate ester lube with regular oil?
You guys are thinking too hard.
Simple: coolant entered the oil. So, figure out how it got there. Head gasket? oil heat exchanger? intake leak? or ..... Yep, find a few unhappy GM owners and the oil condition description sounds exactly the same.
Since truck is 3 years old, don't make any assumptions on what a backyard mechanic uses for antifreeze or for topoffs or for changes or if any coolant additives were being used.
Did the VIN have a history of customer complaints? What mileage? Sabotage shouldn't even be considered unless there is a history of unhappy customer service.
If under warranty, the engine needs to be replaced. And, the cause of the mechanical failure needs to be addressed to prevent same failure in the future.
IMO, the UOA isn't evidence for/against the owner. Data is meaningless without something to compare to.
Simple: coolant entered the oil. So, figure out how it got there. Head gasket? oil heat exchanger? intake leak? or ..... Yep, find a few unhappy GM owners and the oil condition description sounds exactly the same.
Since truck is 3 years old, don't make any assumptions on what a backyard mechanic uses for antifreeze or for topoffs or for changes or if any coolant additives were being used.
Did the VIN have a history of customer complaints? What mileage? Sabotage shouldn't even be considered unless there is a history of unhappy customer service.
If under warranty, the engine needs to be replaced. And, the cause of the mechanical failure needs to be addressed to prevent same failure in the future.
IMO, the UOA isn't evidence for/against the owner. Data is meaningless without something to compare to.
That's why Terry gets paid the big bucks, unDummy. He DOES have something to compare to.
Even without that, though, coolant in the oil as pure data IS evidence for the owner because it is reasonable and proper to assume a mechanical fault caused it to be there: Warranty replacement, thank you very much. Next customer, please.
Even without that, though, coolant in the oil as pure data IS evidence for the owner because it is reasonable and proper to assume a mechanical fault caused it to be there: Warranty replacement, thank you very much. Next customer, please.
Gear oil won't do anything as mentioned ,soda pop in the gas won't do anything to the oil.
I dont think anyone put anything in the oil purposely, there are better ways to destroy a engine and easier like draining out the oil all together it would be more accessable than getting under the hood and leave no evidence. What does Castrol say has anyone notified them? This could be a bad chemical oil mix, Pennzoil made a bad batch in the 1970s and alot of engines spun cranks which Pennzoil paid for after investigations. Iam hoping that isnt the case but Castrol GTX has been taking alot of hits lately(GM rejection) and Iam following this post because its the oil I currently use.
Here is the only information that I have at this time:
Terry should be receiving the sample any day now, and I hope to hear from him very soon.
When we got the truck, they did a full, "normal" diagnostic on it. This did include a full coolant system pressure and leak-down test. The coolant was completely full, and it did not lose pressure during the test.
If it is a bad chemical batch, then hopefully they will be able to determine that by checking the oil. I used to work at Jiffy Lube before here, and I have NEVER seen anything like this before. I obviously cannot say 100% that something was added, but I would just about bet the farm on it at this point.
Terry should be receiving the sample any day now, and I hope to hear from him very soon.
When we got the truck, they did a full, "normal" diagnostic on it. This did include a full coolant system pressure and leak-down test. The coolant was completely full, and it did not lose pressure during the test.
If it is a bad chemical batch, then hopefully they will be able to determine that by checking the oil. I used to work at Jiffy Lube before here, and I have NEVER seen anything like this before. I obviously cannot say 100% that something was added, but I would just about bet the farm on it at this point.
How come every car I work on that came from a jiffy lube has home depot hardware stuck in the oil pan cuz they stripped a plug? Also, i've replaced 2 engines from jiffy lube cuz they cracked the oil pans and all the oil leaked out. Sorry for the rant, but JL here in NY sucks horribly.
Lazy tech probably never changed the oil or filter and said they did.
Lazy tech probably never changed the oil or filter and said they did.
Heck Rustler, I don't have an answer for that. Just like any major chain, there are good ones and there are bad ones.
I worked there 3 years. I would say we averaged 40-45 cars per day. I worked 5 days per week, usually in the pit (I was the assistant manager at 2 stores).. Did about 200 oil changes a week, maybe +/- 800 per month, +/- 9600 per year.. So I can figure I probably did +/- 24,000 oil changes in the time I was there.
I made 1 major mistake. I pulled a bolt holding a transmission shaft in a 80's toyota AWD car that I thought was the usual 17mm check plug. Out of those +/- 24,000 oil changes, that was the only thing I know for certain was my fault. I never had a vehicle return for any of the "horror stories" that I have heard about Jiffy Lube. Not all places are the same.
I do have an update regarding this engine though!!
Looks like I just lost the farm in Vegas. Un-Dummy really is an un-dummy.
The report came back from Terry positive for coolant. How the coolant got into the oil, we may never know. As I said, they did a pressure check before anything else and found no problems. Terry brought up a good point about normal operating temperature and checking it then..
So I told the guys to fire the truck back up and check it at opperating temp.. They didn't think that was too funny.
I have never seen oil fail like this before. I can only ASSUME that this is what happens when the new G05 coolant gets into the oil, which I'm not very familiar with. Either way, it pretty much fried everything.
Figured out the edit. My bad.
I worked there 3 years. I would say we averaged 40-45 cars per day. I worked 5 days per week, usually in the pit (I was the assistant manager at 2 stores).. Did about 200 oil changes a week, maybe +/- 800 per month, +/- 9600 per year.. So I can figure I probably did +/- 24,000 oil changes in the time I was there.
I made 1 major mistake. I pulled a bolt holding a transmission shaft in a 80's toyota AWD car that I thought was the usual 17mm check plug. Out of those +/- 24,000 oil changes, that was the only thing I know for certain was my fault. I never had a vehicle return for any of the "horror stories" that I have heard about Jiffy Lube. Not all places are the same.
I do have an update regarding this engine though!!
Looks like I just lost the farm in Vegas. Un-Dummy really is an un-dummy.
The report came back from Terry positive for coolant. How the coolant got into the oil, we may never know. As I said, they did a pressure check before anything else and found no problems. Terry brought up a good point about normal operating temperature and checking it then..
So I told the guys to fire the truck back up and check it at opperating temp.. They didn't think that was too funny.
I have never seen oil fail like this before. I can only ASSUME that this is what happens when the new G05 coolant gets into the oil, which I'm not very familiar with. Either way, it pretty much fried everything.
Figured out the edit. My bad.
Last edited:
Be careful about posting propietary information. Terry's analysis falls under that category. At least get his permission beforehand.
Darn it, I mis-read his e-mail. I thought he said to share the info, but in reality he only asked to share the raw data. That is a big uh-oh on my part. I Will try to remove what I can, hopefully a Mod can delete the rest.
Man I -=HATE=- this new board.
Someone needs to fix this edit problem. It has reached a point BEYOND annoying.
Someone needs to fix this edit problem. It has reached a point BEYOND annoying.
- Status
