"Expert" opinion

[mrdctaylor]

Ok guys. I lurk around this message board and do alot of reading up on oils. My father-in-law is a mechanic and was talking to someone he considers an expert on the subject of oil. This guy runs a company that deals in oil and filters for industrial machines. The guy threw out several comments and I'd be curious to see what everyone here thinks:

1) He said that you can tell if an oil is still good or not by using a coffee filter. I didn't understand the exact test, but it was something along the lines of putting a drop of oil on a coffee filter, letting it sit over night, and then looking at the ring around the oil drop in the morning to see if there was still life left in the oil. Is there any truth to this? Does this test tell you anything?

2) He also said that synthetic oils were overpriced and offered no benefit to conventional oil. He told my father-in-law that the same additives were available in conventional oils as in synthetic oils (true as far as I know) and that this shows that there is no benefit from synthetic.

My father-in-law has a 2003 Chevy pickup with the 4.3L V6 and started using Mobil 1 on my advice. I recommended going synthetic for several reasons: (1) he plans on keeping this truck for a LONG time, (2) he drives lots of miles per week, and (3) he was interested in etending his drain intervals so he wasn't changing his oil every month or two. He's rethinking the synthetic thing after this other guys advice. I'm just looking to get some feedback on this guy's statements and also feedback on using M1 in his truck so that I can print out this thread and show it to him.

Thanks!
David

 

[Audi Junkie]

Show him the requirement for Mercedes 229.3 spec and tell him no dino oil could meets this. Show him how MB owners won a lawsuit for sludge in their engines when they used dino oil. Show him the pic of Moribundman's super-clean valves after 110k on Syntec 5w-50 with 10k intervals. The mechanic guys knows squat and probally could not explain simple questions about basestock and additives. If all else fails tell him NASCAR uses it, woohoo! SUV oil all the way baby. ps 15w40 HDEOs offer extended drains as a dino oil if climate allows.

 

[mikemc]

1) No idea, but I would trust a TBN test over the Mr. Coffee test. 2) Yes there are similar addatives, but its the PAO base oil that makes the true synthetic a superior oil, especially in extreme cold or severe duty applications. FWIW, I think that a good dino and filter changed at 3 to 5 K intervals is all you need to make most vehicles last longer than people want to keep them.

 

[Alan]

Most people who put a lot of milage on their vehicles do not use synthetic oils.It will last longer then you care to look at it.

 

[mrdctaylor]

"The mechanic guys knows squat and probally could not explain simple questions about basestock and additives."

What is interesting is that this guy is not a mechanic--he's the guy that owns the company that supplies oil/filters to places like the machine shop where my father-in-law works. Oil is his business, quite literally. It is just interesting/puzzling to me that he doesn't think synthetic oil gives you any advantage.

 

[haley10]

The coffee filter test is a good cheap and dirty test, but hardly scientific. So is looking, feeling, and smelling.

I prefer to follow the manufacturer's recommendations or get TBN from a good lab.

Most industrial machines are electrically driven and don't experience combustion blow-by etc. Synthetics typically do provided a better ring seal, hence a bit less contamination.

They also tend to have much better additive chemistry that adds to the expense.

It's not just the base stock....

Most dino's just don't have the initial TBN and the TBN retention to go for very long.

HDEO's maybe do, but they are usually only available to consumers in grades that aren't recommended.

He's somewhat correct, but what you can buy in the real world is a different story.

Most dino motor oils that you can routinely buy, don't have such great TBN, so short drains.

We have to buy what is available easily and can't get specialty service like a big industry, so that's a piece of the puzzle.

Syn's may not be required, but the overall package (additives/tbn,retention) is a lot of it.

 

[mrdctaylor]

So is there any validity to the coffee filter test?

 

[Kestas]

This coffee filter test was widely used by Ford Transmission engineers when my dad worked there. I knew it was some 'special' kind of paper -- I didn't realize it was coffee filter paper.

 

[FowVay]

My take on this situation is that this guy doesn't sell synthetic oil so he's not going to have anything especially good to say about it. It only stands to reason. If he sold synthetics at a higher profit margin then he'd be praising it to high heavens.

I also doubt if he has any formal education with regards to chemistry or lubricantion/tribology so his opinion is simply that.

 

[Terry]

Blotter paper is what we used to use years ago.

The size and distance of the inner ring from the outer ring was used to determine sludge development. The definition of the ring is representatitive of the presence of sludge, no defined ring and a smooth transition from the oil spot to the spead out area means that the oil is good to go!

Some test companies even gave reference pictures to compare to.

Not very scientific and difficult to do anything but subjective testing.

We called it the "blotter" test in the USN.

 

[ekpolk]

quote:

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Originally posted by Mystic:
That test he talks about with the coffee filter (it does not have to be a coffee filter) is just a simple test to see if an oil has oxidized or not. It could be used for any oil, conventional or synthetic. If the oil spreads out on the paper it is still good, and if it forms a small dark spot it has oxidized. People have been using that test for many years.

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Mr. Oil, who believes in the blotter test, overlooks the fact that synthetic base oils will tolerate much more heat before they oxidize than mineral oils will. So perhaps one way to look at syns is to compare them to insurance. If you never have a loss/claim, then it looks a lot like the insurance was a waste, whereas if you do, then it's worth its weight in gold. With oil, if your engine never thermally taxes its oil, then extra money spent on syn looks wasted. Once the temp goes up, however, the value of the synthetic becomes easier to see.

 

[Mystic]

That test he talks about with the coffee filter (it does not have to be a coffee filter) is just a simple test to see if an oil has oxidized or not. It could be used for any oil, conventional or synthetic. If the oil spreads out on the paper it is still good, and if it forms a small dark spot it has oxidized. People have been using that test for many years.

 

[1 FMF]

quote:

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It is just interesting/puzzling to me that he doesn't think synthetic oil gives you any advantage.

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what context is he/you talking in?
If it's about the run of the mill car, then I agree that synthetic oil gives you little or no noticable advantage. You won't see any significant mpg increase, nor longevity if things are properly maintained. And a vast majority of people won't care what the inside of the motor looks like; as long as it runs well the inside isn't relevant.

But if we're talking something like a corvette, porsche, turbo, etc.. that's autocrossed in Arizona heat at high rpms or run on the autobahn at 100+ mph for hours at a time, then that's a different story and a good reason for an argument to be made.

I also agree that some synthetics are overpriced, especially when compared to quality conventional oils.

 

[MNgopher]

In terms of synthetic being overpriced in relationship to dino's, there is some validity to that.

I know its been debated over many a time, but if I can use a dino oil that delivers a 6000 mile OCI at 1.50 a quart, then using a 4.50 a quart oil, I'd need to run it out 3 times as long, to 18,000 miles, to get the same cost benefit, assuming you still changed filters.

Does anyone think that every "Synthetic" on the market can go that far?

This also excludes the value of time in changing the oil, but I already think that my 6,000 mile inspections overall are plenty long...

I'm not saying syn oil is no good, just pointing out for the average Joe, it likely is overpriced for the benefits. (Especially given how many people still use syn oil and then still do short or manufacturer recommended intervals).

 

[jbas]

quote:

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He said that you can tell if an oil is still good or not by using a coffee filter.

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Wow! This is the sophisticated, high-tech stuff we just can't get here in Okie-land. The test here is to put a drop of dino oil in the mouth of a chicken, wait 10 minutes, then we tear its entrails out, and place it on a table facing away from the North Star. If the guts move, then its good oil. If no movement, bad oil. A lot of bad oil around here lately...that's kind of why I've gone to Havoline full synthetic.

 

[Mamala Bay]

I calculated the cost considering if you got 2 mpg better with synthetic than on a 6,000 mile run that would be 300 gls on 20mpg. For 22mpg that would be say 273 gls. So you save 17 gls which comes out to say $2 a gallon or $34 dollars savings and a cleaner engine. And that's only on a 6,000 mile run, but also depends what kind of driving condition and engine type. I run synthetic at least 10,000 miles with 1 quart add on and come out ahead like a free oil change. Depends how you view synthetic or dino oil...

 

[MNgopher]

quote:

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Originally posted by Mamala Bay:
I calculated the cost considering if you got 2 mpg better with synthetic than on a 6,000 mile run that would be 300 gls on 20mpg. For 22mpg that would be say 273 gls. So you save 17 gls which comes out to say $2 a gallon or $34 dollars savings and a cleaner engine. And that's only on a 6,000 mile run, but also depends what kind of driving condition and engine type. I run synthetic at least 10,000 miles with 1 quart add on and come out ahead like a free oil change. Depends how you view synthetic or dino oil...

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True if you actually get a 2 mpg bump in fuel mileage. Actual user results vary fairly significantly...