Experience with some old cellulose filters.

[Dman]

So I had put an old Fl400s on in-line adapter for a transmission.
Everything was fine for about a day then the car started idling hard and seemed to be missing out at low speed. There was no engine light.
Thought it was do to a vacuum leak I found but that didn’t fix it.
Cleaned mass air flow sensor and took off throttle body and cleaned it. Still the same.
Plugs and wires and pcv were all recently done already.
Finally I felt the external transmission filter and it was cold to touch after a good highway drive. Took it off and put a different old old filter on (ph3600) it was all good at first and was hot to touch after driving. That lasted less than a day and that filter apparently started going into bypass too as it was now cold to touch after a good highway drive. Got the same results at that point.
Went and got a new big wixxp 51515 and all is fine.
The Fl400s and ph3600 had both been out in my garage for a couple years or so.
My belief is that the cellulose medias in those 2 filters obtained moisture while sitting around for a long time and were forced to go into bypass in short order when put in use.
The bypass relief pressure setting must be something like 8 to11 and is apparently too high for the transmission at idle speed.
The wixxp is a synthetic media and is big so it won’t need to bypass.
That’s the lesson I learned recently.
I think cellulose filters should not be used if they are old or exposed to high moisture(humidity).
Used to filter motor oil at higher psi than a transmission can put out, they could very possibly be bypassing the whole time and you wouldn’t know it I think.

 

[bullwinkle]

I’m not convinced that cellulose motor oil filters should be used for ATF at all, most of them aren’t really rated for it. Synthetic/micro glass seems to do a lot better from what I’ve seen.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Might want to cut them open to see if the media got damaged or not.

 

[Dman]

I’m not convinced that cellulose motor oil filters should be used for ATF at all, most of them aren’t really rated for it. Synthetic/micro glass seems to do a lot better from what I’ve seen.

I did cut the Fl400s open. The media wasn’t damaged or deformed or anything visually apparent to me.

Might want to cut them open to see if the media got damaged or not.

i cut the Fl400s open. Media didn’t look damage

 

[Chris142]

Plummed backwards?

 

[Dman]

I’m not convinced that cellulose motor oil filters should be used for ATF at all, most of them aren’t really rated for it. Synthetic/micro glass seems to do a lot better from what I’ve seen.

I guess I can’t disagree with that after the experience

 

[Dman]

Plummed backwards?

No it had a different synthetic filter on before this for 40k.

 

[dnewton3]

Generally, adding a filter for a tranny should be done in a bypass parallel-path design and not a full-flow series path. You said it's "in line"; how is that plumbed ... BP or full flow? Further, they are generally added ahead of the cooler (put on the hot side); where is yours plumbed? What syn filter did you use?

I'm not convinced that leaving a cellulose filter around for a while is bad, if it's kept in a reasonably clean/dry state. Five years would not concern me at all if left in a decent environment.

Cellulose filters are perfectly fine for any hydrualic applicaiton if the filter is propely plumbed and spec'd correctly for the application. There are hundreds of different filters made for all manner of hydraulics application in industry, agriculture, etc. I recently replaced some large cellulose filters on an old Case 970 tractor, for example.

The issue may be that your home-brewed application may not be best served by the particular choices you've made.

 

[DuckRyder]

By what mechanism is an external transmission filter causing an engine to " idling hard and seemed to be missing out at low speed"?

For that matter what does "idling hard" and "missing out at low speed" even mean?

 

[Dman]

I initially thought the car was idling hard as in sputtering do to an improper air fuel mixture or possibly missing out (misfiring) do to an ignition spark problem.

The transmission was starving for fluid at low speed because the filter was restricting flow too much. That was causing the car to sputter which felt the same as a rough idle to me.
At higher speed the pump was able to build up enough pressure to open the bypass valve in the filter.

 

[Dman]

Generally, adding a filter for a tranny should be done in a bypass parallel-path design and not a full-flow series path. You said it's "in line"; how is that plumbed ... BP or full flow? Further, they are generally added ahead of the cooler (put on the hot side); where is yours plumbed? What syn filter did you use?

I'm not convinced that leaving a cellulose filter around for a while is bad, if it's kept in a reasonably clean/dry state. Five years would not concern me at all if left in a decent environment.

Cellulose filters are perfectly fine for any hydrualic applicaiton if the filter is propely plumbed and spec'd correctly for the application. There are hundreds of different filters made for all manner of hydraulics application in industry, agriculture, etc. I recently replaced some large cellulose filters on an old Case 970 tractor, for example.

The issue may be that your home-brewed application may not be best served by the particular choices you've made.

My buddies car has a remote filter in the return side plumbed directly in full flow not as a BP.
It did have a cellulose V1 group 7 at one time and apparently had no problem. The 2 from my garage have a similar flow rate to the group 7 but clearly plugged up which I can only believe is do to moisture absorbed by the cellulose elements sitting in a humid garage for several months. I put the Wix XP 51515 on which is supposed to be a synthetic media. It doesn’t spec a higher flow rate than the Fl400s or the ph3600 but has seemed to be fine.
So that’s my reasoning there.

 

[ZeeOSix]

I initially thought the car was idling hard as in sputtering do to an improper air fuel mixture or possibly missing out (misfiring) do to an ignition spark problem.

The transmission was starving for fluid at low speed because the filter was restricting flow too much. That was causing the car to sputter which felt the same as a rough idle to me.
At higher speed the pump was able to build up enough pressure to open the bypass valve in the filter.

Do automatic transmissions have a positive displacement oil pump, or some other type that would be real sensitive to flow restriction?

 

[Dman]

Do automatic transmissions have a positive displacement oil pump, or some other type that would be real sensitive to flow restriction?

Fixed displacement. The rate of flow is dependent on engine speed. Has an internal gear powered by a another gear from the torque converter and an outer gear. Together that creates suction.
I think CVTs are variable displacment and use a combination of a gear box and pulleys and, well I just don’t know a lot about those.

 

[Johnmpb]

By what mechanism is an external transmission filter causing an engine to " idling hard and seemed to be missing out at low speed"?

For that matter what does "idling hard" and "missing out at low speed" even mean?

I am as genuinely confused as you are

 

[Dman]

I am as genuinely confused as you are

What is confusing about it. Maybe I can clarify or reword it.

 

[dnewton3]

I initially thought the car was idling hard as in sputtering do to an improper air fuel mixture or possibly missing out (misfiring) do to an ignition spark problem.

The transmission was starving for fluid at low speed because the filter was restricting flow too much. That was causing the car to sputter which felt the same as a rough idle to me.
At higher speed the pump was able to build up enough pressure to open the bypass valve in the filter.

The trans is "starving for fluid"? Where did all the fluid go? You said the filter is on the return side of the system. So if it's blocking the fluid flow, then the fluid would be backing up in the cooler circuit, lines, etcetera. A filter restriction on the return side doesn't make fluid disappear; it has to be somewhere. I see no reason to believe the tranny is "starved" for fluid. You are implying that a blocked filter is causing a starved tranny. I don't think so.

Any normal auto trans has a torque converter. The TC has a stall speed just above the set idle speed of the engine; usually 200-300 rpm above idle speed. Regardless of the proposed restriction, the TC isn't going to produce any more drag at ilde just because the system is backed up.
- when operating "normally", the TC will have fluid in it, and the slip rate of the hydraulic path is set by the designed stall speed to allow for comfortable idle when in "drive" mode. (putting it in "neutral" would reduce the tiny amount of drag when in "drive").
- even if the system is backed up with flow resistance on the return side, how is that affecting the TC????? The proposed root cause of the problem (oil flow restriction on return side) doesn't change the TC stall speed, which means the engine doesn't see any major load change at idle.
Am I seeing this wrong? Because I find the theory of failure mode implausible.

Further, the dP across any flter, cellulose or syn media, is only a few PSI, especially at a low flow rate. I find it completely absurd to believe that sitting at idle, the tranny is somehow restricted enough in flow by a typical oil filter that the idle would be so compromised that the engine would "sputter". I think the filter media, even cellulose media, will flow just fine at idle speeds. This, too, seems implausible.

 

[dnewton3]

My buddies car has a remote filter in the return side plumbed directly in full flow not as a BP.
It did have a cellulose V1 group 7 at one time and apparently had no problem. The 2 from my garage have a similar flow rate to the group 7 but clearly plugged up which I can only believe is do to moisture absorbed by the cellulose elements sitting in a humid garage for several months. I put the Wix XP 51515 on which is supposed to be a synthetic media. It doesn’t spec a higher flow rate than the Fl400s or the ph3600 but has seemed to be fine.
So that’s my reasoning there.

First of all, are we talking about your car, or your buddies car. Please let's stick to one topic at a time.

Second, what is a "V1 group 7" filter anyway?

The flow rate of a Wix XP filter, especially at low flow rates such as idle speeds of an engine/tranny, is not going to be substantially different than a celluose filter.

Your theory is that the "moisture" of sitting in a humid garage for months has caused cellulose to become so restrictive that it can cause an engine to "sputter". Like the water did what? cause the cellulose to swell up so big that the pores in the media are gone completely? We'd only be talking about tenths of a gram of water, and it would quickly be pushed through the media with all the other fluid flow. But your theory is that the water is now somehow so tenacious that it can hold itself into the media, causing it to swell up to a point where it will essentially hydro-lock fluid behind it? And that in turn caused the engine to "sputter" even though the TC is doing it's job at idle? That's absurd.

So, in summary, it's your theory that a cellulose filter with the similar specs as a syn media filter, somehow absorbed so much water from the atmosphere while in storage that the pores of the media have choked off the flow, and that the engine cannot overcome the flow resistance of 8-11 psi to pop open the filter BP valve without dragging down via the TC and sputtering at idle. And incidentally, that filter worked fine for a day, but only after operation in service for a day did it become so restrictive that it caused the engine to run rough.

Are you pulling our legs?

 

[Odd_Ball]

Why would a filter in bypass be cold? Oil is still circulating through the filter, just not through the filter media. I can't think of any reason why a canister filter in bypass would be cold if it's bypassing hot fluid.

 

[Dman]

First of all, are we talking about your car, or your buddies car. Please let's stick to one topic at a time.

Second, what is a "V1 group 7" filter anyway?

The flow rate of a Wix XP filter, especially at low flow rates such as idle speeds of an engine/tranny, is not going to be substantially different than a celluose filter.

Your theory is that the "moisture" of sitting in a humid garage for months has caused cellulose to become so restrictive that it can cause an engine to "sputter". Like the water did what? cause the cellulose to swell up so big that the pores in the media are gone completely? We'd only be talking about tenths of a gram of water, and it would quickly be pushed through the media with all the other fluid flow. But your theory is that the water is now somehow so tenacious that it can hold itself into the media, causing it to swell up to a point where it will essentially hydro-lock fluid behind it? And that in turn caused the engine to "sputter" even though the TC is doing it's job at idle? That's absurd.

So, in summary, it's your theory that a cellulose filter with the similar specs as a syn media filter, somehow absorbed so much water from the atmosphere while in storage that the pores of the media have choked off the flow, and that the engine cannot overcome the flow resistance of 8-11 psi to pop open the filter BP valve without dragging down via the TC and sputtering at idle. And incidentally, that filter worked fine for a day, but only after operation in service for a day did it become so restrictive that it caused the engine to run rough.

Are you pulling our legs?

I’m not trying to “pull your legs”) I’m not trying to be smart or sound very knowledgeable.
I’m simply sharing my experience and the conclusions I think I’ve made.
I was always talking about my buddies car. I never said it was my car. I even posted in a prior thread about the filter I took off and replaced with the FL400s before these events. I followed up in this thread.
My recent research (I’m not just pulling random ideas out of my head) helped me to acquire my theory for why the filters went into bypass. Absolutely, they were in bypass.
Machinery lubrication has an article titled The Effects Of Water Contamination On Oil Filters for example and they seem to think too much moisture in an oil filter can cause it to clog.
I learned about the probable bypass sitting on those filters and concluded that the transmission probably struggled to create enough pressure to open them at low speeds or rpm’s
As far as my belief that the transmission was was starving for fluid, I dunno, you tell me a better theory.
Perhaps my terminology is not the best. Maybe it’s more accurate to say the car was shuttering at low rpm’s. It didn’t do so at higher rpm’s, it didn’t do so in park but in gear sitting still, initially accelerating and slowing to stop it would do it. It stalled a couple times reversing out of the driveway.
You have a good point in that the fluid has to be present somewhere in the system but it was certainly struggling going back into the pan to be taken back up. The system apparently wasn’t pressuring up enough to burst a line or the filter case or even rip through the media but it was definitely restricting flow enough to cause the events I’ve described. It’s not doing it with the current filter I put on and it didn’t do it before with other filters. Not even with the cellulose filter that initially came with the remote mount he bought.
I do know that a transmission low enough on fluid is gonna struggle and if it’s very low the vehicle ain’t gonna move. I know if the pump is shot and it’s not flowing sufficiently enough, again, it’s gonna struggle.
So whatever, I’m cool with being wrong if I am or not fully understanding what’s going on but I don’t think it’s it cool to have my character attacked because of it.
If you have knowledge to share you could probably do so without contention and still feel good about yourself.

 

[Dman]

"V1 group 7" is a filter made by purplator.