Originally Posted By: azsynthetic
Whether you care about your car warranty or not does not negate the fact that API/ACEA/ect. specs were desinged to maintain an engine warranty. It is not necessary the best oil there is for your engine. Redline street oil is their race oil (confirmed by Redline) with detergent so their performance are practically the same, i.e. better than any oem "street" oil that you can think off. Royal Purple XPR oil are also race/street capable. Also, you do not need to change RedLine street oil or RP XPR after each event. You can leave it in for the normal OCI.
Valvoline advertised publicly that their Synpower is VW-505 equivalent way before it was certified by VW. Valvoline does it by qualification via similarity. Many drivers, myself included, bought this oil because we believe in Valvoline's performance. People buy Redline/Amsoil/etc. also believe in those companies. The boutique oil companies do not cater to the general public like you, they are geared toward severe duty users like racers and off-roaders and high end automobiles.
If you look at oil as something upon which you need but not want to spend money then Synpower and PP on sale are all you need. Don't waste your time trying to understand the boutique oils, UOA, extended OCI, etc. Heck, I'm not even sure why you want to be on this forum since all you need to do is to follow the owner manual of your vehicles.
That was an interesting demonstration of rhetoric mixed with logical fallacies, to wit:
* the straw man argument -
Originally Posted By: azsynthetic
API/ACEA/ect. specs were desinged to maintain an engine warranty. It is not necessary the best oil there is for your engine
I never claimed that API/ACEA/etc. made an oil the best, only that they provided specific and useful information about an oils properties. But are you actually trying to imply meeting API/ACEA/etc. specs is a "bad" thing? Likewise, is having an oil be designed to maintain an engines warranty an undesirable trait?
* the bold unsupported statement -
Originally Posted By: azsynthetic
Redline street oil is their race oil (confirmed by Redline) with detergent so their performance are practically the same, i.e. better than any oem "street" oil that you can think off. Royal Purple XPR oil are also race/street capable. Also, you do not need to change RedLine street oil or RP XPR after each event. You can leave it in for the normal OCI.
Was there any specific definition of "better" that you had in mind? How much UOA data do you have on post-race engines, and for that matter which engine, which race, or even which OCI?
* the false analogy -
Originally Posted By: azsynthetic
Valvoline advertised publicly that their Synpower is VW-505 equivalent way before it was certified by VW
The critical difference is that unlike some of the "boutique" brands, basically every Valvoline oil is API certified, many if not most are ACEA certified, and Valvoline is a big participant in the various auto manufacturer's approval system. Synpower MST 5w30, for example, has formal approvals from VW, MB, and BMW. So when (as of 8/2007) they list those approvals for the Synpower 5W-40 as "pending" one can have a fair amount of conifidence that it will be recieved. All in all, Valvoline claims regarding API/ACEA/etc. carry a lot more weight than those of a company that has had no oils approved by API, ACEA, or any engine manufacturer.
* the "you got to have faith"/"you are not worthy" argument -
Originally Posted By: azsynthetic
People buy Redline/Amsoil/etc. also believe in those companies. The boutique oil companies do not cater to the general public like you, they are geared toward severe duty users like racers and off-roaders and high end automobiles.
So what exactly is it you "believe in" about these companies? Is faith rather than science and data really the best way to evaluate an oil? Are you implying that the boutique oils have no value for non-severe users? Likewise, how "high end" does an automobile have to be in order to be admitted to the "boutique" oil fraternity? Do "high end" automobile engines operate under different laws of chemistry and physics that make regular non-boutique oils unacceptable?
* and finally, my favorite, the ad hominem -
Originally Posted By: azsynthetic
If you look at oil as something upon which you need but not want to spend money then Synpower and PP on sale are all you need. Don't waste your time trying to understand the boutique oils, UOA, extended OCI, etc. Heck, I'm not even sure why you want to be on this forum since all you need to do is to follow the owner manual of your vehicles.
Has it really come to this - If you don't agree with me you don't belong here, why don't you go away? Is that really your strongest closing argument about the virtues of your favorite oil? No data, no new information, no discussion of chemical properties, just that unbelievers should be shunned?
Here's the big point you seem to be avoiding:
The lack of information about the properties of the "boutique" oils raises uncertainties about them.
Which brings us back to my first post in this thread:
Originally Posted By: jpr
I believe there is plenty of room for well meaning people to disagree about the value of API, ACEA, and/or manufacturer approvals.
My own point of view is that when an oil carries one or more of those specifications it provides me with specific, independent, and reliable information about the properties of the oil. While the absence of those certifications does not automatically condemn an oil, the lack of information results in uncertainity about those properties.
Everybody has and is welcome to their own comfort level in accepting uncertainty and their own judgement as to what supplementary information is sufficient to offset that lack of information due to the lack certifications.
So far you've provided little to no actual information about the properties of any of the "boutique" oils. Absent data, all your arguments about the virtues of these oils comes down to a question of faith. Since faith is by definition a belief that persists despite contradictory or absent evidence, that doesn't leave much room to have a reasonable discussion. Until such time as you can present some actual data, we might as well be debating which is your favorite color.
Whether you care about your car warranty or not does not negate the fact that API/ACEA/ect. specs were desinged to maintain an engine warranty. It is not necessary the best oil there is for your engine. Redline street oil is their race oil (confirmed by Redline) with detergent so their performance are practically the same, i.e. better than any oem "street" oil that you can think off. Royal Purple XPR oil are also race/street capable. Also, you do not need to change RedLine street oil or RP XPR after each event. You can leave it in for the normal OCI.
Valvoline advertised publicly that their Synpower is VW-505 equivalent way before it was certified by VW. Valvoline does it by qualification via similarity. Many drivers, myself included, bought this oil because we believe in Valvoline's performance. People buy Redline/Amsoil/etc. also believe in those companies. The boutique oil companies do not cater to the general public like you, they are geared toward severe duty users like racers and off-roaders and high end automobiles.
If you look at oil as something upon which you need but not want to spend money then Synpower and PP on sale are all you need. Don't waste your time trying to understand the boutique oils, UOA, extended OCI, etc. Heck, I'm not even sure why you want to be on this forum since all you need to do is to follow the owner manual of your vehicles.
That was an interesting demonstration of rhetoric mixed with logical fallacies, to wit:
* the straw man argument -
Originally Posted By: azsynthetic
API/ACEA/ect. specs were desinged to maintain an engine warranty. It is not necessary the best oil there is for your engine
I never claimed that API/ACEA/etc. made an oil the best, only that they provided specific and useful information about an oils properties. But are you actually trying to imply meeting API/ACEA/etc. specs is a "bad" thing? Likewise, is having an oil be designed to maintain an engines warranty an undesirable trait?
* the bold unsupported statement -
Originally Posted By: azsynthetic
Redline street oil is their race oil (confirmed by Redline) with detergent so their performance are practically the same, i.e. better than any oem "street" oil that you can think off. Royal Purple XPR oil are also race/street capable. Also, you do not need to change RedLine street oil or RP XPR after each event. You can leave it in for the normal OCI.
Was there any specific definition of "better" that you had in mind? How much UOA data do you have on post-race engines, and for that matter which engine, which race, or even which OCI?
* the false analogy -
Originally Posted By: azsynthetic
Valvoline advertised publicly that their Synpower is VW-505 equivalent way before it was certified by VW
The critical difference is that unlike some of the "boutique" brands, basically every Valvoline oil is API certified, many if not most are ACEA certified, and Valvoline is a big participant in the various auto manufacturer's approval system. Synpower MST 5w30, for example, has formal approvals from VW, MB, and BMW. So when (as of 8/2007) they list those approvals for the Synpower 5W-40 as "pending" one can have a fair amount of conifidence that it will be recieved. All in all, Valvoline claims regarding API/ACEA/etc. carry a lot more weight than those of a company that has had no oils approved by API, ACEA, or any engine manufacturer.
* the "you got to have faith"/"you are not worthy" argument -
Originally Posted By: azsynthetic
People buy Redline/Amsoil/etc. also believe in those companies. The boutique oil companies do not cater to the general public like you, they are geared toward severe duty users like racers and off-roaders and high end automobiles.
So what exactly is it you "believe in" about these companies? Is faith rather than science and data really the best way to evaluate an oil? Are you implying that the boutique oils have no value for non-severe users? Likewise, how "high end" does an automobile have to be in order to be admitted to the "boutique" oil fraternity? Do "high end" automobile engines operate under different laws of chemistry and physics that make regular non-boutique oils unacceptable?
* and finally, my favorite, the ad hominem -
Originally Posted By: azsynthetic
If you look at oil as something upon which you need but not want to spend money then Synpower and PP on sale are all you need. Don't waste your time trying to understand the boutique oils, UOA, extended OCI, etc. Heck, I'm not even sure why you want to be on this forum since all you need to do is to follow the owner manual of your vehicles.
Has it really come to this - If you don't agree with me you don't belong here, why don't you go away? Is that really your strongest closing argument about the virtues of your favorite oil? No data, no new information, no discussion of chemical properties, just that unbelievers should be shunned?
Here's the big point you seem to be avoiding:
The lack of information about the properties of the "boutique" oils raises uncertainties about them.
Which brings us back to my first post in this thread:
Originally Posted By: jpr
I believe there is plenty of room for well meaning people to disagree about the value of API, ACEA, and/or manufacturer approvals.
My own point of view is that when an oil carries one or more of those specifications it provides me with specific, independent, and reliable information about the properties of the oil. While the absence of those certifications does not automatically condemn an oil, the lack of information results in uncertainity about those properties.
Everybody has and is welcome to their own comfort level in accepting uncertainty and their own judgement as to what supplementary information is sufficient to offset that lack of information due to the lack certifications.
So far you've provided little to no actual information about the properties of any of the "boutique" oils. Absent data, all your arguments about the virtues of these oils comes down to a question of faith. Since faith is by definition a belief that persists despite contradictory or absent evidence, that doesn't leave much room to have a reasonable discussion. Until such time as you can present some actual data, we might as well be debating which is your favorite color.
