EV lots getting cleaned out.

Of course not, but doing the math on our house in Florida - the payback on solar will be just under 8 years.

Put another way, I take the money I will spend on solar (paying cash) and the ROI on that purchase is roughly 12%.

Guaranteed.

Hard to get 12% on your money in any case, and an assured 12% is great.

This assumes that electricity prices stay the same, of course, which I don’t think is true.

Bring on the sunshine!
Interesting, does that factor in the cost of a roof and replacement panels at the end of the roof's life? IIRC they last 10-15 years tops down there. I did the math here and I won't live long enough to see any real savings. FTR I am not being confrontational.
 
True, but many were replaced with SUVs like the Suburban, Escalade, Expedition, etc. and pickup trucks grew in size. Once things stabilize this will be a blip on the radar screen imo.
I KNOW I am the outlier but to me, gas is still cheap, we got used to pricing from decades ago, to me this is normal paying $3.50 to $3.75 a gallon. I paid a $1 + in late 1979/ Heck, throw in more taxes added onto the gallon and then take into account and compare the cost of other things to 1979 and ... well .. Im good with it. :)
Last I hear, many are upset with the price of electricity in parts of the country too. To me, it's dirt cheap and does have an edge over gas for those who charge at home, fits the use that they need and dont mind smaller vehicles and or the cost of EVs.
 
Swung by a Ford dealer yesterday. Sat in a Mach E GT. Interior was really nice. Very good materials and quality. Was surprised by that but it's been a while since I sat in any Ford. Didn't like the Mach E at all when it first came out. It's grown on me. It's actually a good car for the money IMO. They have employee pricing right now.

0-60 in 3.8 seconds
280 miles of range
AWD - 30/70 torque split/active



1781180474272.webp
 
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For some reason not seeing many EVs around here in upstate NY. Two friends own them, but also have gas cars for long trips so I'm not sure they save much on fuel. One friend says he regrets the EV but the other likes it for local driving. Just too many hassles still with charging, especially on trips. My wife would hate having to consult an app to determine where she can stop and when she would have to stop, if she could figure out how it worked.

Cold weather and driving in very rural areas can be a problem if you're not careful.

What I've noticed after watching a lot of reviews of people that have taken their EV's on long cross country trips is that it is doable, it just takes a bit more planning. Can be a bit stressful at times in certain areas. The infrastructure is just not there yet. Took decades for gas stations to grow as well.

For local driving, they can't be beat.
 
I'm not sure when they were all procured but my neighborhood is now riddled with Tesla and Chevy EV's.
I have noticed when I look at who is driving an EV here on the coast, it most likely is a older person.. but I think many like you, the population is many retirees in the Southeast. I see a fair amount on the local roads. But a recent trip to Virginia on the interstates I mentioned to my wife how surprised I was at the lack of seeing EVs. I KNOW not scientific at all. Just an observation in more rural area highways.
We do know nationally EVs on our roads are about 5% so a long way to go, if ever
 
I have noticed when I look at who is driving an EV here on the coast, it most likely is a older person.. but I think many like you, the population is many retirees in the Southeast. I see a fair amount on the local roads. But a recent trip to Virginia on the interstates I mentioned to my wife how surprised I was at the lack of seeing EVs. I KNOW not scientific at all. Just an observation in more rural area highways.
We do know nationally EVs on our roads are about 5% so a long way to go, if ever
As we drive by each other, we typically waive. It's a mix of ages with no noticeable difference. Your observation is logical though, and i'll pay more attention.
 
Interesting, does that factor in the cost of a roof and replacement panels at the end of the roof's life? IIRC they last 10-15 years tops down there. I did the math here and I won't live long enough to see any real savings. FTR I am not being confrontational.
The roof is relatively new (concrete tile). So, this is just the installation cost, which includes removal of the inoperative pool solar hot water panels (which no longer work, and have been replaced with propane). 25 year guarantee on parts and installation. So that ROI continues after it is paid off, and as you say, I may not be here for them to age out. I don’t expect electric rates to be considerably lower 25 years from now (unless we can replace the standby generator with a “Mr. Fusion”), so the future owner of this house will likely have to consider the cost of replacement and cost of power for their needs.

It does assume net metering, which is true now. Part of the impetus (in addition to whopping power bills here, due to the features of the house) is to lock in that net metering deal. The ROI shifts considerably if I am not able to sell excess daytime power back at the same rate as I buy it. The purchase of batteries (like the Tesla Powerwall) would add considerably to the cost, and change the calculus quite considerably. The batteries would be more attractive if I didn’t have the 24kW Generac for standby power. Neighbors tell me that we almost never lose power (and the lines are underground) but I still want backup generation for a variety of reasons - AC in the summer, future needs, interior lights, pool pump and filtration, etc. If we didn’t already have the Generac, I would have considered multiple batteries to fill that back-up requirement.

Again, I am running the numbers based on a steady 18c/kWh, and if the cost of power goes up, then everything solar pays for itself more rapidly.

Here are my rough numbers - April power bill $450. May is shaping up to be $550. I anticipate Summer to be around $650-700. Total solar installation is $56,000, all in, for a 28 kW system, which will exceed our peak daytime use in the summer - with AC, vehicle charging, everything. The current trade situation has driven the cost of solar up, but this is the quote today, and there are no more Federal, or even state, tax incentives available to us for the installation.

Without those incentives, it still makes sense. I’m not being “pushed” by any externalities, this is a pure cost consideration.

The amount of insolation varies over the year, and we are mostly south facing with the installation, but the system should generate more than we use most months, with a few winter months being slightly below our average daily use. With net metering, I should be about zero net use for the year.

Company risk is a consideration, that is, how likely is the company to exist 25 years from now? I interviewed/talked with 5 different companies. Picked a local one that has been in business 20 years. That’s no small consideration. They use German made panels and US made inverters. Parts quality is an important consideration, too.

Solar made no sense for us in Virginia Beach - no tax incentives at the state level, much lower power use, lower insolation, an east/west orientation on the roof and a short time horizon for the ROI.

But here? In the new house? Can’t wait to get it installed.
 
Swung by a Ford dealer yesterday. Sat in a Mach E GT. Interior was really nice. Very good materials and quality. Was surprised by that but it's been a while since I sat in any Ford. Didn't like the Mach E at all when it first came out. It's grown on me. It's actually a good car for the money IMO. They have employee pricing right now.

0-60 in 3.8 seconds
280 miles of range
AWD - 30/70 torque split/active



View attachment 342318
You posted the loaded one. I went to their website. The majority are in the mid 45k
Here is the lowest at 40K
WOW, big discounts on a well reviewed EV.
Screenshot 2026-06-11 at 8.50.03 AM.webp


Here is the link to over 12 Mustang EVs with the type of pricing you posted at that dealership.
https://www.winnerford.com/new-vehicles/mustang-mach-e/
 
You posted the loaded one. I went to their website. The majority are in the mid 45k
Here is the lowest at 40K
WOW, big discounts on a well reviewed EV.
View attachment 342320

Here is the link to over 12 Mustang EVs with the type of pricing you posted at that dealership.
https://www.winnerford.com/new-vehicles/mustang-mach-e/
I think the Mach E gets overlooked a bit, although I'm seeing more and more of them. But they get high praise pretty much across the board.

I was really surprised at how well the interior build quality was. Shocking for a domestic, to me at least.
 
The roof is relatively new (concrete tile). So, this is just the installation cost, which includes removal of the inoperative pool solar hot water panels (which no longer work, and have been replaced with propane). 25 year guarantee on parts and installation. So that ROI continues after it is paid off, and as you say, I may not be here for them to age out. I don’t expect electric rates to be considerably lower 25 years from now (unless we can replace the standby generator with a “Mr. Fusion”), so the future owner of this house will likely have to consider the cost of replacement and cost of power for their needs.

It does assume net metering, which is true now. Part of the impetus (in addition to whopping power bills here, due to the features of the house) is to lock in that net metering deal. The ROI shifts considerably if I am not able to sell excess daytime power back at the same rate as I buy it. The purchase of batteries (like the Tesla Powerwall) would add considerably to the cost, and change the calculus quite considerably. The batteries would be more attractive if I didn’t have the 24kW Generac for standby power. Neighbors tell me that we almost never lose power (and the lines are underground) but I still want backup generation for a variety of reasons - AC in the summer, future needs, interior lights, pool pump and filtration, etc. If we didn’t already have the Generac, I would have considered multiple batteries to fill that back-up requirement.

Again, I am running the numbers based on a steady 18c/kWh, and if the cost of power goes up, then everything solar pays for itself more rapidly.

Here are my rough numbers - April power bill $450. May is shaping up to be $550. I anticipate Summer to be around $650-700. Total solar installation is $56,000, all in, for a 28 kW system, which will exceed our peak daytime use in the summer - with AC, vehicle charging, everything. The current trade situation has driven the cost of solar up, but this is the quote today, and there are no more Federal, or even state, tax incentives available to us for the installation.

Without those incentives, it still makes sense. I’m not being “pushed” by any externalities, this is a pure cost consideration.

The amount of insolation varies over the year, and we are mostly south facing with the installation, but the system should generate more than we use most months, with a few winter months being slightly below our average daily use. With net metering, I should be about zero net use for the year.

Company risk is a consideration, that is, how likely is the company to exist 25 years from now? I interviewed/talked with 5 different companies. Picked a local one that has been in business 20 years. That’s no small consideration. They use German made panels and US made inverters. Parts quality is an important consideration, too.

Solar made no sense for us in Virginia Beach - no tax incentives at the state level, much lower power use, lower insolation, an east/west orientation on the roof and a short time horizon for the ROI.

But here? In the new house? Can’t wait to get it installed.
Thanks! Solar makes no sense for us in NY either. Having said after reading your reply, solar panels much like buying an EV depends a lot on where you live and how much you pay for gas. IMO the high gas prices are temporary, although taking a little longer than expected to drop.
 
Thanks! Solar makes no sense for us in NY either. Having said after reading your reply, solar panels much like buying an EV depends a lot on where you live and how much you pay for gas. IMO the high gas prices are temporary, although taking a little longer than expected to drop.
Agreed. This is why I so dislike blanket statements about things, like EV, or diesel trucks, or economy cars, or any decision in general, because when taken out of context, those positions are just silly and uninformed. You have to understand the framework in which a decision is being made before you can do a reasonable analysis.

As an aside, if you tow a huge RV, you need a capable vehicle, like a GMC 3500. I see lots of huge diesel trucks that never tow, never carry a load. Those people are being foolish with their money, buying something that serves no purpose other than stroking their ego. Kind of like buying a Raptor to cruise the mall parking lots and take the kids to Daycare, and it never sees a single mile off road. I know several in my old neighborhood. They are very popular with SEALs, who are drawn to a particular vehicle type, even if that type is never used for its intended purpose.

Back to EV.

In Virginia Beach, our plug-in hybrid was charging at 14c/kWh. It took about $2.00 worth of electricity to fully charge the battery. We got 35 miles of range on battery. Even before recent gas prices, that was a considerably lower cost/mile.

It cost us $1,500 to have the Tesla EV charger installed. We moved sooner than expected, so we never quite paid off the EV charger with the cost savings, but it was close. We knew that was a risk, so we didn’t make the EV charger decision based solely on cost, it was based on several factors - cost savings for this car, ability for our son to charge his Bolt*, future vehicle changes for our family, additional house feature when we sell.

*He bought the Bolt for $18K, new, a couple years ago, half what a comparable ICE would have cost. He lives in DC, rarely drives, and when he does, it is typically around town. His apartment complex offers free EV charging, so the Bolt, for him, was a very compelling case, even with gas at $2.79/gallon. Huge savings with his Bolt in total ownership cost and cost/mile.
 
I wish more people would sit down and do the math on this before they jump. It will take a very long time for an EV to pay for itself in this manner... Likely much longer than they'll actually keep it.
 
Kinda reminds me of when my wife goes clothes shopping and "saves money". It's "look honey, I saved 30%", and I say "but you had to spend $125 to do that". She says "better than spending $165". I remind her that she doesn't need new clothes and it usually declines from there. Now I just say they look nice and drink my beer 😁.
 
Solar made no sense for us in Virginia Beach - no tax incentives at the state level, much lower power use, lower insolation, an east/west orientation on the roof and a short time horizon for the ROI.
Solar makes great sense in Florida, especially the Southern half.

Coastal VA not so much.

There is still the roof / ROI / net metering / how long will I be here decisions, but at least you can count on the sun shining.

https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/solar/images/nrel-map-solar-annual-GHI-2018.png

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How much is gas?

I am not commenting on EV / not EV - but I guarantee that swapping cars just to save gas will likely never pay out. If you needed a new car anyway that would be different.
True, it rarely pencils out to replace a vehicle solely due to external factors like the price of gas. The capital acquisition costs will always exceed the cost of gas unless it went to some truly insane price.

Of course there's many permutations to this. If you're making payments on your gas car and you can get out of it for what you owe, might make sense.

In our case, my wife wanted a new car (was going to get one regardless), and I needed a new car because it made no sense to put a new transmission in my prior vehicle as the cost of doing so would have exceeded the value of the vehicle...and there were other things wrong with it on top of that.
 
The first big oil shock was in 1973. Here is a photo of a 1974 Chevy Impala. By 1977, GM threw in the towel and came up with the downsized 1977 Impala. The “ full size” cars never got big again. Mods, I used screen shots from Wiki to show the down sizing effect.

View attachment 342313

View attachment 342314
The later cars were still pretty large, interior wise. The earlier cars were huge just for the sake of being huge, with huge overhangs front and rear.
 
The first big oil shock was in 1973. Here is a photo of a 1974 Chevy Impala. By 1977, GM threw in the towel and came up with the downsized 1977 Impala. The “ full size” cars never got big again. Mods, I used screen shots from Wiki to show the down sizing effect.

View attachment 342313

View attachment 342314
The downsized B bodies (Impala, Olds 88/98, etc.) were both smaller and lighter but much of the fuel savings from downsizing and weight reduction were countered by lowering the compression ratios in 1972 to meet emissions. A 1977 Impala got better mileage than a 1976 because it was smaller, lighter and had a 2.73 rear end - but if it had better than 7.5:1 compression, and had something better than a carburetor it would have been a lot better.

We are talking going from 4,500 to 4,000 lbs - it wasn’t that much of a “downsize”. 4,000lb cars today (and there are lots of them) get far better mileage than the 1977 GM B bodies because of improvements in engine efficiency, not weight.
 
I wish more people would sit down and do the math on this before they jump. It will take a very long time for an EV to pay for itself in this manner... Likely much longer than they'll actually keep it.
EVs also offer a more simplistic drivetrain. Modern automatic transmissions don't seem to be that reliable these days. No transfer cases, 10 speed transmissions, oil changes etc. So there are some other benefits rather than just fuel/charging costs etc.
 
I think the Mach E gets overlooked a bit, although I'm seeing more and more of them. But they get high praise pretty much across the board.

I was really surprised at how well the interior build quality was. Shocking for a domestic, to me at least.
Saw a good number in Norway … inside of a pretty good mix …
 
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