European vs American Formulas

[XS650]

Originally Posted By: G-MAN
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: G-MAN
Unless Ali has changed his routine, he was using 0w30 in his Enzo (which specs 10w60), and he has told Ferrari about it.

And did they promptly proceed to void his warranty or were they open-minded about it?


Under US law a car manufacturer cannot void your warranty based on the oil you use unless you have a warranty claim and they can show that the oil caused the problem and it wasn't the recommended oil.


Nice lawyer full employment talk.

A manufacturer's representative can deny your warranty claim because he is having a bad hair day. Then the ball is in your court to prove that their "expert" was wrong.

They are much less likely to pull any [censored] if you have documentation showing that you have complied with the full terms of the warranty, recommended and mandatory.

 

[opposite_locker]

Surprising that Chevy recommends 5w30 for the ZR1...I would have expected tham to run something thicker as I'm sure the motor creates a lot of heat.

Chrysler has recommended 5w20 for all its cars except for the SRT models, which are supposed to run Mobil 1 0w40. This is part of the reason I'm running a thicker oil (GC 0w30) in my 5w20 specced Dodge, along with the fact that it runs quieter & smoother than it did on M1 & PP 20wt

 

[Art_Vandelay]

Originally Posted By: opposite_locker

Chrysler has recommended 5w20 for all its cars except for the SRT models, which are supposed to run Mobil 1 0w40.


I did not know that. Are they the only domestics that spec 0W-40? That's definitely the oil I would have guessed the ZR1 would need.

I wonder if the 0W-40 got spec'd as a result of Daimler's ownership of Chrysler? In other words, had they owned GM the Corvette would have been factory filled with it? Just a thought.

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
This is part of the reason I'm running a thicker oil (GC 0w30) in my 5w20 specced Dodge, along with the fact that it runs quieter & smoother than it did on M1 & PP 20wt



Do you drive an SRT? Do you drive your non-SRT in any manner that could resemble an SRT on a abusive day?

I'm just trying to get wrapped around the security angle here.

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
I wonder if the 0W-40 got spec'd as a result of Daimler's ownership of Chrysler? In other words, had they owned GM the Corvette would have been factory filled with it? Just a thought.


Although most of the famous ones went into aerospace, I'm sure that there were enough German scientists to go around. Some may have made it as prtro-chemical engineers at American firms like Esso/Exxon and Mobil ..and hung around after the merger. They may have managed to help out some contemporary German automotive engineers by providing advanced lubricants ...like they did for GM with M1 5w-30.

 

[opposite_locker]

Quote:
I wonder if the 0W-40 got spec'd as a result of Daimler's ownership of Chrysler? In other words, had they owned GM the Corvette would have been factory filled with it? Just a thought.


Definitely plausible, but then wouldn't Chrysler have chosen to run the same 20wt or even a 30wt to help even minimally increase the CAFE mileage after being bought by Cerebrus? Dodge alone has offered 5 different vehicles with an SRT engine, so it has to account for a fair number of cumulative SRT vehicles produced/sold.


Quote:
Do you drive an SRT? Do you drive your non-SRT in any manner that could resemble an SRT on a abusive day?


I would say so. The truck has seen over 55k in 14 months, with lots of 80-90mph freeway driving (sometimes loaded with over 1-ton of fruit), daily driving on country roads (55-80mph with several stop signs along the way), and 5-10 hours per week of idling. In our area, cold temps are around 30 deg F in the winter, and it gets up to 110 deg F in the summer.

...and with a 6-spd, it sees >5k RPM at least 10 times per day.

But primary reason for switch was the excessive valvetrain noise with M1 0w20 and moreso PP 5w20. That and, someone posted a link to the European owners manual a few months ago that stated the recommendation to switch our from the FF 5w20 to 5w30 at the first oil change. Tried to find the link, but no luck...

 

[Art_Vandelay]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Quote:
I wonder if the 0W-40 got spec'd as a result of Daimler's ownership of Chrysler? In other words, had they owned GM the Corvette would have been factory filled with it? Just a thought.


Although most of the famous ones went into aerospace, I'm sure that there were enough German scientists to go around. Some may have made it as prtro-chemical engineers at American firms like Esso/Exxon and Mobil ..and hung around after the merger. They may have managed to help out some contemporary German automotive engineers by providing advanced lubricants ...like they did for GM with M1 5w-30.



5W-20 directly to 0W-40, skipping 5W-30 altogether is a very European move. Wouldn't you say? It is a European formula, spec'd for a domestic car, while the corporate ownership was European. That's some coincidence.

 

[Gary Allan]

Well, try and keep in mind that M1 0w-40 is the finest 30 grade out there.

..but I didn't know that Europeans were known for jumping over viscosity grades (I just liked the way you said that, Art. I'm getting visions of mori with some type of pole vaulting gear on while he's riding his bike

)

Now if they had also thrown in a larger sump and spec'd a really long (relatively speaking) drain interval, we could confirm that it was some invasion force sneaking in there ..sorta like a 5th column movement.

..but your suspicions are noted.

 

[SpitfireS]

I've not seen any xxW-20 oils overhere.
"overhere" includes the Netherlands, Belgium, Germany, Denmark, Sweden.
It's mostly xxW-30 and xxW-40 weights.

Europe is a lot bigger than Germany and their AutoBahn, even in Germany there are speed limits on highways, especially around city's - and there are a lot of them.
Germany's public roads are not all racetrack.

Crazy taxi drivers in Greese are not the standard for Europe either.

CAFE = Corporate Average Fuel Economy (but I guess almost everybody knows).
The average European build cars, like Fiat, Renault, Citroen, Peugeot, Saab, Volvo, Opel (no longer GM

) and all that I did not mention have engines smaller than 1.8l and they are economic by nature, so there is no need to "push" 20 weights.
This makes it look like 20 weights (THIN!!!

) are bad, doesn't it?

 

[ADFD1]

Originally Posted By: SpitfireS

This makes it look like 20 weights (THIN!!!

) are bad, doesn't it?

Not really, especially is 20 weight oils aren't even available.

AD

 

[G-MAN]

Originally Posted By: XS650
Originally Posted By: G-MAN
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: G-MAN
Unless Ali has changed his routine, he was using 0w30 in his Enzo (which specs 10w60), and he has told Ferrari about it.

And did they promptly proceed to void his warranty or were they open-minded about it?


Under US law a car manufacturer cannot void your warranty based on the oil you use unless you have a warranty claim and they can show that the oil caused the problem and it wasn't the recommended oil.


Nice lawyer full employment talk.

A manufacturer's representative can deny your warranty claim because he is having a bad hair day. Then the ball is in your court to prove that their "expert" was wrong.


Wrong. I suggest you read up on the Magnuson-Moss Act before posting further on a topic you know nothing about.

 

[ikeepmychevytoo]

I guess the filter of exporting the cars that worth transporting through Atlantic what makes this "Euro driving" saga in this bulletin. There are Seats, Talbots, Peugeots, Smarts, some 1.3 diesels and 1.0 gasolines for seasoning the driving apetit. And in that "Autobahn" still a truck doing 90 wants to take over the one doing 80 in the right lane anytime. 80 to 130 kph speed ilmit is widely accepted world standard regardless the engine. I think there might be two reasons why Europe traditionally specs heavier.

1. Taxing by the displacement is widely applied in Eu and Britain. This in turn, makes the average go-getter cars with capacities below their engineering optimum. I can recall 1.6 and smaller engines with top speed of 160 kph cannot keep that pace steadily because of the expanding cylinders. Very typical of 70's and not unheard in the 90's. Considering the 60's o-rings all must have started with thick oils, and rest of the engine designed in accordance. There had been "side roads" like rather popular air cooling, small 1.7 liter V4 blocks of the Ford, finely gradual hi capacity cooling of Audi etc. As the metallurgy paced clearances throughout the operational heat range stabilised. But still, sacrificing what engineering could do for economy and emissions if displacements were to be calculated solely by the engineers.

2. By generalisation, clerarance free valvetrains (hydraulic lifters) adopted much later but with a sharper transtion. Now 20W-50 is almost obsolete, not in the market but amongst the new cars. Even Fiat, a known oil vanisher, warns against anything thicker than 15W-40 in its newer hydraulic lifter engines. After US brands of Ford and Opel, there is a trend towards the XW-30's. But evolutional nature of engine design needs some time I guess. Right now there are very few engines of PSA and VW that capable of using FE oils. I guess all about those brand specific inflation of standards are mainly to sort out the dangerously thinner 30's from the rest.

 

[G-MAN]

Originally Posted By: opposite_locker
Chrysler has recommended 5w20 for all its cars except for the SRT models


Incorrect. The 3.5 and 4.0 SOHC engines are still spec'd for 10w30 in the manual and on the oil fill cap.

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
I've not seen any xxW-20 oils overhere.
"overhere" includes the Netherlands, Belgium, Germany, Denmark, Sweden.
It's mostly xxW-30 and xxW-40 weights.


Ah, my good SpitfireS, but our own "just here to make sure that you get all things European "ECZactly" correct" resident alien Germanic has corrected me when I suggested the same thing. btw-Mass transit also sucks in Europe ..and cold drinks are widely available ..even though tourists never appear to be able to find them ..but those are other matters.

Check your manual. You allegedly should at least have 20 grades "spec'd" ..even if you would have to beg to get access to them.

 

[Art_Vandelay]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Well, try and keep in mind that M1 0w-40 is the finest 30 grade out there.

..but I didn't know that Europeans were known for jumping over viscosity grades (I just liked the way you said that, Art. I'm getting visions of mori with some type of pole vaulting gear on while he's riding his bike

)

Now if they had also thrown in a larger sump and spec'd a really long (relatively speaking) drain interval, we could confirm that it was some invasion force sneaking in there ..sorta like a 5th column movement.

..but your suspicions are noted.


Ahh yes. The larger sump. I keep forgetting about that. So 0W-40 is the finest 30 weight oil made. Very interesting. Perhaps it's the one formula that works on both sides of the Atlantic?

 

[Gary Allan]

Eh

It's an excellent product. I'm just an unappreciative admirer. It's got some altered criteria for "being" compared to most other oils. While we typically view visc retention as an admirable attribute ..you have to adopt the Emperor's New Clothes disposition with M1 0w-40. It's prone to shearing to a 30 grade ..and that, if you're savvy enough, is invisible to you. It's apparently only required to be a 40 grade "in the bottle" and not too much longer. Nothing odd about that, if you're in the know.

I figured that I just wasn't cultured enough to appreciate it.

This has nothing to do with its performance, which is excellent in everything that I've seen it used in.

For me, it's like that kid in Tales from the Hood when he was talking about refried beans. Why not fry them up right the first time?

 

[ekpolk]

Originally Posted By: XS650
. . .

A manufacturer's representative can deny your warranty claim because he is having a bad hair day. Then the ball is in your court to prove that their "expert" was wrong.

They are much less likely to pull any [censored] if you have documentation showing that you have complied with the full terms of the warranty, recommended and mandatory.


The rep can deny the claim for whatever reason he or she wants, but if the owner files suit, the ball is in the MANUFACTURER'S court. The mfr has the burden to prove that something the owner (or some other third party) did caused the failure. If they can't meet that burden, the owner wins. And the owner most probably gets his attorney fees. Now, I'd always advise taking easy steps to avoid a fight, even a fight that you'll win in the end, but it's still important to make sure we're putting out good info. This isn't "lawyer full employment" stuff, it's designed to keep large corporate entities from trying to steamroll individual owners. I'd rather see a lawyer make some money, than see a major corporation unjustly get away with bullying an individual owner. Hey, if the corporations don't want lawyers being fully employed, all they have to do is pay the claims they ought to pay, up front, without any nonsense.

 

[moribundman]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Ah, my good SpitfireS, but our own "just here to make sure that you get all things European "ECZactly" correct" resident alien Germanic has corrected me when I suggested the same thing. btw-Mass transit also sucks in Europe ..and cold drinks are widely available ..even though tourists never appear to be able to find them ..but those are other matters.


If you misquote me, please supply a link to what I didn't post.

1. You can get a cold beverage at any Drogeriemarkt (drugstores like Walgreens) or at any gas station, or from a vending machine. Even hamlets have vending machines.

2. I never said public transportation in Europe sucked. The Tube in London and the Metro are excellent! What I said was that public transportation in rural Germany sucked. For example, my hometown has just a few bus lines that shuttle old people across town.

Don't put words in my mouth all the time.

 

[moribundman]

Originally Posted By: ekpolk
This isn't "lawyer full employment" stuff, it's designed to keep large corporate entities from trying to steamroll individual owners


Bwahahahahaha! Did you keep a straight face when posting that?

 

[Art_Vandelay]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
It's apparently only required to be a 40 grade "in the bottle" and not too much longer. Nothing odd about that, if you're in the know.



Sounds like GC once it's out of the bottle.