"Ethanol Free" Fuel, May Not Be

Even in a 50 year old Lawn-Boy, I see virtually no difference in performance or longevity whether I'm using E0 or E10.

Mine live in the garage, and I'm very diligent about using the fuel shut-off. In fact, I have it down pretty exactly at least on the one I use most often that I can shut off the fuel as I'm ALMOST finished mowing, and generally the mower will die within ~30 seconds of me parking it on the driveway. Most of the old LBs have a shut off integral to the fuel tank(it's part of the barb where the hose connects) so running them dry really leave the system empty. The carbs do get a bit of sediment, but no gum or other issues.

I was bad and left gas in 3 over the winter. I topped them off with fresh, and ran them out at the first mow. They were fine and none the worse for wear.

I do have good hose on everything-either Tygon or Gates Barricade ethanol rated...
I am the same way, I own a few different pieces of equipment, ranging in age from the 1960s to fairly new. I only use the zero turn mower weekly, but even with that I'll turn the valve off on the fuel on my way back to the shed. By the time I park it inside, it usually sputters and runs out of fuel a few seconds later.

Leaving fuel in machines over winter isn't always a death sentence, but there may still be varnish in the carbs even though they run fine. 2-strokes I find store a little bit better just because the oil keeps the aluminum carburetor parts from corroding. If they sit too long though (1 year+) the fuel evaporates and you are left with some nice sludge in the carb.
 
Take the fuel bowl off the small engine and see if you find any sort of gel forming. I saw a video on YouTube where there was gel forming from certain additives and Startron was one that did.
My Deere L110 has 710 hours accumulated over about 16 or 17 years. Until this last winter, I never did anything other than park it in the garage after the last mowing of the season. I chose to run E10 as the plug and the way the engine ran indicated that it was probably calibrated with that in mind - it ran beautifully on it. So E10 in a tank that could have been full, half full or just a bottom full kept just fine over many Iowa winters. 4 times I've had that carb apart - 2 times due to a stuck needle from debris, once because for preventive maintenance (gotta dote on the ope from time to time lol) and the 4th was last fall because I was replacing a leaking shut off solenoid. NONE of the times did I ever see anything other than clean metal and parts ( aside from the aforementioned debris).

Like jeepman3071 said, the only times I've ever seen issues with E10 has been when they've sat in the rain or when they're stored outside - and then no matter your fuel of choice, you're asking for problems.
 
My Deere L110 has 710 hours accumulated over about 16 or 17 years. Until this last winter, I never did anything other than park it in the garage after the last mowing of the season. I chose to run E10 as the plug and the way the engine ran indicated that it was probably calibrated with that in mind - it ran beautifully on it. So E10 in a tank that could have been full, half full or just a bottom full kept just fine over many Iowa winters. 4 times I've had that carb apart
So you have pulled the carb apart four times and yet you see no problem with Ethanol in fuel?
 
I'm not trying to hijack my own thread, but does anyone here have a "Flex Fuel" vehicle? And if so, what kind of mileage are you getting on it with E-85, compared to E-10 or E0?
 
I am the same way, I own a few different pieces of equipment, ranging in age from the 1960s to fairly new. I only use the zero turn mower weekly, but even with that I'll turn the valve off on the fuel on my way back to the shed. By the time I park it inside, it usually sputters and runs out of fuel a few seconds later.

Leaving fuel in machines over winter isn't always a death sentence, but there may still be varnish in the carbs even though they run fine. 2-strokes I find store a little bit better just because the oil keeps the aluminum carburetor parts from corroding. If they sit too long though (1 year+) the fuel evaporates and you are left with some nice sludge in the carb.

I was actually surprised by how well they faired with the small amount left over the winter, although as I said the carbs were dry as was my habit.

Of course this is 32:1 gas, and I normally use the Lawn-Boy branded TC-W3. I know it has stabilizers in it, but I'd guess most other 2 cycle oils do as well.

Pre-child(when I had more time) I was super picky about the Lawn Boys in particular, mostly because they don't make them anymore. I'd often mix up a small amount of 8:1, put maybe 4 oz. in each mower, and start and let them run until they ran completely dry. I don't know if there's any merit to doing that, but my thought was that I'd get plenty of extra oil coating the moving parts for winter storage. I'd then start them back up at 32:1 in the spring(usually would pop the mufflers off and give them at least a quick clean first-I'd often find the 8:1 would leave almost an oil film that would let the carbon just wipe off) and they'd smoke more than usual for a couple of minutes and then settle right down.

I'm not trying to hijack my own thread, but does anyone here have a "Flex Fuel" vehicle? And if so, what kind of mileage are you getting on it with E-85, compared to E-10 or E0?

I'm a few years out of date, but my mom and my grandfather had 5 Town Cars between them over the years, and all but one was FF.

I took my mom's '09 Town Car on a trip at one point, and over ~1000 miles had 4 back to back tanks of E85 and the rest was E10(87).

Checking back on some notes, I averaged 18-20mpg on E85(interstate driving) and 24-26 on E10. I think these numbers are pretty typical for this vehicle. I remember it ran GREAT once it had adjusted to E85, and E10 almost felt like a downgrade. Still, though, at the time the price difference wasn't enough to justify the MPG loss. Knowing those numbers, I could calculate when it did make since.

Something else too-from what I remember(and I haven't run an FFV in years-the Ford counterpart to my MKZ was always FF but the MKZ isn't) E85 can be anywhere from 51-85% ethanol. I also seem to remember that winter blends tend to be closer to 51% as ethanol actually has a somewhat counter-intuitive effect on the volatility(I'm feeling a Raoult's law exam problem on the subject the next time I teach Gen Chem II, as the vapor pressure should be relatively straight forward to calculate) while summer blends tend to be closer to the 85% maximum.
 
Checking back on some notes, I averaged 18-20mpg on E85(interstate driving) and 24-26 on E10. I think these numbers are pretty typical for this vehicle. I remember it ran GREAT once it had adjusted to E85, and E10 almost felt like a downgrade. Still, though, at the time the price difference wasn't enough to justify the MPG loss. Knowing those numbers, I could calculate when it did make since.
Our 2017 Prius V gets 10% better fuel ecconomy using E0 vs E10. That doesn't quite cover the cost difference but we use it anyway because that car can go months without seeing a gas station.
 
I can't understand the E0 fascination. Who cares?
We've had E10 here for decades and the OPEs including two strokes and all of the cars we've had over those years seemed fine with it.
I've even run a few tanks of E15 in the HAH and noted no untoward symptoms. Fuel economy did not suffer and might have actually improved.
A little ethanol in the mix causes no problems in my personal experience.
 
I can't understand the E0 fascination. Who cares?
We've had E10 here for decades and the OPEs including two strokes and all of the cars we've had over those years seemed fine with it.
I've even run a few tanks of E15 in the HAH and noted no untoward symptoms. Fuel economy did not suffer and might have actually improved.
A little ethanol in the mix causes no problems in my personal experience.
If I had to guess, there are probably a few things at play:

1. E10 fuel really can cause issues in rubber parts and the like not rated to handle it. Of course, for about the past ~30 years, it's probably been difficult to find fuel lines and other parts that aren't at least E10 rated. If you have rubber parts that are that old, chances are you'll have issues, but I'd also question whether or not failures were compatibility related or age related.

2. The stoichiometry of E10 and other oxygenated fuels(remember before ethanol it was MTBE) is different from non-oxygenated fuels. Carburetors likely will need at least adjustment, and in extreme cases may need rejetting to run properly on E10. EFI can handle it without missing a beat. This isn't a big deal but is a change.

3. Ethanol fuels can have issues with water in ways that pure hydrocarbon gasoline doesn't. Hydrocarbon fuels will not mix at all(or will only mix sparingly) with water, so if for some reason your gas tank gets water in it, it just sits there. Ethanol, and other short chain alcohols that are sometimes used, will allow water to mix up to a point. This isn't a problem until it is. You can pass a critical amount of water where both the water and ethanol will come crashing out together, leaving behind gasoline without ethanol. What's left behind will often have a very low octane rating(dangerously low for a modern engine) as ethanol blends use ethanol as an octane booster.

Those are the 3 big issues I can think of, and for the most part they are easily resolved but the "boogeyman" is still there.
 
Found a new station with a dedicated pump.
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My son was drilling holes in the top of the silos at the local ethanol plant the other day. Nice day except for the 30 mph winds. Said everything smelled like rotting grain.

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3. Ethanol fuels can have issues with water in ways that pure hydrocarbon gasoline doesn't. Hydrocarbon fuels will not mix at all(or will only mix sparingly) with water, so if for some reason your gas tank gets water in it, it just sits there. Ethanol, and other short chain alcohols that are sometimes used, will allow water to mix up to a point. This isn't a problem until it is. You can pass a critical amount of water where both the water and ethanol will come crashing out together, leaving behind gasoline without ethanol. What's left behind will often have a very low octane rating(dangerously low for a modern engine) as ethanol blends use ethanol as an octane booster.

3. Ethanol fuels can have issues with water in ways that pure hydrocarbon gasoline doesn't. Hydrocarbon fuels will not mix at all(or will only mix sparingly) with water, so if for some reason your gas tank gets water in it, it just sits there. Ethanol, and other short chain alcohols that are sometimes used, will allow water to mix up to a point. This isn't a problem until it is. You can pass a critical amount of water where both the water and ethanol will come crashing out together, leaving behind gasoline without ethanol. What's left behind will often have a very low octane rating(dangerously low for a modern engine) as ethanol blends use ethanol as an octane booster.
That was a great three point summary. You forgot to mention that ethanol is hydrophilic, meaning it attracts water. Some of us with PHEVs don't visit a gas station for months on end. Every atmosperic cooling cycyle introducec more water vapor laced air into your fuel tank where said water is predisposed to mixing with the ethanol.
 
Did he tho? Google says hydrophilic means having a tendency to mix with, dissolve in, or be wetted by water.
Yes, he did. Think about your Google definition and what it means in terms of moist air coming in contact with Ethanol in a fuel tank.

I congratulate you on looking up a word you may not have been familiar with. You might consider looking up one of the root words, philia, as that would be enlightening. If nothing else you can impress your friends at a cocktail party! Have fun.
 
I can't understand the E0 fascination. Who cares?
We've had E10 here for decades and the OPEs including two strokes and all of the cars we've had over those years seemed fine with it.
I've even run a few tanks of E15 in the HAH and noted no untoward symptoms. Fuel economy did not suffer and might have actually improved.
A little ethanol in the mix causes no problems in my personal experience.
When E10 came on the scene here 10-15 years ago every piece of 2-cycle OPE I had quit within two years. This included a leaf blower, weed whacker and three chain saws. These were replaced by three Stihl machines: blower, chainsaw and weed whacker. What killed the earlier machines could have been fuel lines or gunked up carburetors. I didn't have the time on my hands to fix them so I just junked them and bought new machines. The fact that five pieces of 2-cycle OPE, all of varying ages quit within two year speaks volumes.

Now as far as cars go, I run E0 in two modern fuel injected vehicles that technically don't require it. Both of these vehicles can go months without seeing a gas station. A lot of water vapor could enter the fuel by mixing with ethanol over the course of those months. I also have numerous data points to confirm that 89 Octane E0 delivers 10% or more better fuel economy in a Prius. I know other Prius owners who have had the same experience.

An interesting little twist on this discussion is my son's 2017 Accord with the 2.4 Liter Earth Dreams engine. This car sits for long periods post Covid so we use 89 octane E0 in it as well. We have data on four 900 mile highway trips while using E0. This vehicle achieves only 3% better fuel economy using E0.
 
LOL they have been using E10 in Illinois since the 1980's. Only issue I've had is an old B&S motor that had the carb mounted on the tank and could not pick up all the fuel. This allowed water to build up. No way to fix it either as you could not completely drain the tank.
 
There is a product called "HEET" that has been on the market for decades. It was / is heavily used in the rust belt during Winter, to prevent gas line freeze. It is mostly made up of alcohol. Supposedly the alcohol it contains "melts" the ice allowing it to mix with the fuel in the tank preventing gas line freeze due to water in the fuel tank / lines.
 
There is a product called "HEET" that has been on the market for decades. It was / is heavily used in the rust belt during Winter, to prevent gas line freeze. It is mostly made up of alcohol. Supposedly the alcohol it contains "melts" the ice allowing it to mix with the fuel in the tank preventing gas line freeze due to water in the fuel tank / lines.
Yes and anyone still using it that uses E10 gasoline is a fool. HEET use to be methanol too, don't know if it still is.

Once the water and alcohol has separated from the gas there is no going back to a gas/water/alcohol mix.
 
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