Esters Vs. PAO

[Jeffs2006EvoIX]

Additonally, for the guy who talks about "cokeing" of the turbo journal bearing, keep in mind that my car also has an Oil Temp guage, to where I can keep an eye on oil temps before turning the car off. I find that to be MUCH more accurate measurment than voltage draw through a turbo timer. IMO. I had a turbo timer back in the day with my 03 Evo 8. My friend and tuner saw it and said, "why you have this thing for" haha. It was on Ebay the next day.

 

[BeanCounter]

I've been using SSO in my turbocharged car and had great results, even at extended intervals. Couldn't be happier, so this gets my vote.

 

[wiswind]

I hear you on opinions.
However, one learns a LOT from a site such as this.
There are folks here who know a LOT about oil, and it is well worth the reading.

As for what is BEST for your application?
I would recommend you have a used oil analysis done, and if you want the MOST from that analysis, get a professional interpretation done on that analysis.
Blackstone-labs is a site sponsor.
Terry Dyson used to be a member here and offers analysis as well as professional interpretation and consulting.
I have used Blackstone Labs and was very happy with them, but I only needed a basic test, which they did very well.
They explained the results very well.
Your application may benefit from the professional analysis of the results.
An oil analysis is not the full picture, but it is a LOT of information as to what is going on in YOUR particular application.

 

[Jeffs2006EvoIX]

My next oil change I was going to send in a sample. Only problem is it won't be really accurate. I have apporx 1 qt RP 10/40 XPR mixed with 4qt of Mobil 1 Extended Performance 10w30. All Approx. Reason is when I change my oil, about 1 qt gets held up in the Oil Cooler (yes it has a large oil capacity) so, I wanted to wait for one more oil change first. I was going to send in a sample to check for coolant in the oil that was all. I am still on the fence though on weather or not to stay with the Mobil 1 Extended Performance 10w30 or switch to something else. For the money seems the Redline 5w30 is a good deal, unless you just happen to catch the other oils on sale at the store. Granted, it is hard to beat M1 in the 5qt jug, but then again, the store doesn't always have the weight or the EP in the jug that I need. Paying $8.00 p/qt for the Mobil 1 Extended Performance is not a great deal in my book.

 

[UNC017]

Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
The turbo part is a dead issue here. I understand what the guy posting about the heat soak,


Apparently you don't understand it, or else you wouldn't go on to say:

Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
but seriously, that is not really an issue any more.


Seriously, its just as much of an issue as it ever was.

The turbo bearing heat soak is the hardest thing an engine like yours will do to oil. In every other respect, its a creampuff on oil- minimal shearing, minimal additive depletion, minimal high pressure sliding contact. Something that's truly hard on oil in ways other than high temperature is a carbureted big-block pushrod V8 with .6" lift at the cam, dual valvesprings, 10:1 compression, and a 6500 RPM redline. Lots of fuel dilution, shearing with gear-drive oil pumps and chain-driven cam, astronomical sliding contact pressures at the cam/lifter interface, and non-trivial pressures in the bearings and wrist pins. That's what additive-laden racing oils like RP XPR, Joe Gibbs oil, Roush oil, etc. are made for. You don't need a racing oil for its anti-wear additives, you need something that can handle heat soak. And in many ways, those additive-rich racing oils may just be more of a problem for you since they can potentially lead to even more ash/coke problems in the turbo.

 

[Audi Junkie]

Re: Study PAO VS Esther [Re: Feffman]
stenerson Offline


Registered: 08/26/09
Posts: 454
Loc: NH
According to the article poly ester have poor hydrolytic stability. How would that effect an engine oil?
_________________________
2004 Dodge 1500 4x4 5.7 Hemi 101k miles
2000 Dodge Caravan 3.3 136k
9 years using Mobil 1 15w50. 9 months on PP.
Now RP.

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#1637244 - 10/19/09 10:44 AM Re: Study PAO VS Esther [Re: stenerson]
vxcalais Offline


Registered: 07/14/07
Posts: 747
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: stenerson
According to the article poly ester have poor hydrolytic stability. How would that effect an engine oil?


Would it mean that if you had a very small coolant leak, or high combustion fluid type bi products, you would be knackered ???
_________________________
Ride - Holden Calais VX GMV6 3.8litre 01'Delo 400 Multigrade
Other - Toyota Corolla 06'Oil whatever Toyota chucked in

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#1637378 - 10/19/09 12:58 PM Re: Study PAO VS Esther [Re: stenerson]
saaber1 Offline


Registered: 11/28/07
Posts: 1722
Loc: Pacnw
Originally Posted By: stenerson
According to the article poly ester have poor hydrolytic stability. How would that effect an engine oil?


It doesn't:

"Redline's reply is correct. Hydroscopic refers to a liquid's capacity to absorb and solubilize water. Higher molecular weight esters will only solubilize 0.1 to 0.2% water, and even this will be released under vacuum and heat.

Tom NJ"

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...780#Post1625780

Also here is a good article on Esters FYI:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...994#Post1252272
_________________________
"when 5W30 is cold, ...the oil is 35 weight (5+30),...20 w 50 starts at 70 and warms up to 50"
- Kyle, auto mechanic & VP Speedline Motorsports, INTL

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#1637415 - 10/19/09 01:30 PM Re: Study PAO VS Esther [Re: saaber1]
Tom NJ Offline


Registered: 07/28/06
Posts: 845
Loc: New Jersey
Saaber1 is correct - it doesn't - but for a different reason.

Hydroscopicity, a liquid's capacity to absorb and solubilize water, is different than hydrolytic stability, a liquid's capacity to react with water.

Esters are not considered very hydrolytically stable, but they vary according to structure, and the conditions needed to break them are pretty severe. The net effect in motor oils is not significant - you may see a rise in TAN but not the corrosive type.

Polyol esters are more hydrolytically stable than diesters, which were used for many years in synthetic motor oils without problems. Advanced POEs are quite hydrolytically stable. Nearly 40 years of ester use in motor oils have not demonstrated any performance issues with respect to their hydrolytically stability.

Tom NJ

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#1637540 - 10/19/09 03:04 PM Re: Study PAO VS Esther [Re: Tom NJ]
labman Offline


Registered: 03/14/03
Posts: 8706
Loc: Nothern USA
Esters will react with anything with an acid or hydroxyl including water. However, not very fast except at high temperatures. By the time the temperature gets high enough for much to react, most of the problem things will have evaporated off. Glycol from the coolant could be a problem. Who know what strange new esters could form.

Mixing polyol and dibasic acid esters could lead to polyesters forming. I used to use them to make paint resins. So watch frankenmixes and coolant leaks. Otherwise, as stated, they have an excellent record.

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#1637682 - 10/19/09 05:24 PM Re: Study PAO VS Esther [Re: labman]
Bruce T Offline


Registered: 04/20/04
Posts: 408
Loc: Oklahoma City
Wow, great discussion. I didn't know that polyol esters could react with diesters or antifreeze. That's something to watch.

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#1637887 - 10/19/09 08:11 PM Re: Study PAO VS Esther [Re: labman]
Tom NJ Offline


Registered: 07/28/06
Posts: 845
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: labman
Mixing polyol and dibasic acid esters could lead to polyesters forming. I used to use them to make paint resins.


True, but the POE and diester types used in synthetic lubricants will not generally transesterify except at temperatures beyond car engines. It would be a concern for jet engine lubricants, but no such mixtures are used there. Even if polyesters (we called them complexed esters) are formed, they are also stable, just higher in viscosity. Complexed esters are widely used in synthetic lubricants - great physical properties such as pour point and VI, but not so good for high temperature coking.

Advanced POEs are branched at specific locations on the carboxylic acid moiety, thus stearically hindering water attack at the ester linkage. This also reduces the methylene hydrogens which improves high temperature oxidative stability and coking. Properly structured these are the cream of POEs for high temperature use. Overkill for car engine oils, but the darling of the latest generation jet engine oils and industrial chain lubricants.

Tom NJ

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#1637902 - 10/19/09 08:28 PM Re: Study PAO VS Esther [Re: Tom NJ]
rcy Online content


Registered: 02/14/04
Posts: 1125
Loc: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: Tom NJ


True, but the POE and diester types used in synthetic lubricants will not generally transesterify except at temperatures beyond car engines. It would be a concern for jet engine lubricants, but no such mixtures are used there. Even if polyesters (we called them complexed esters) are formed, they are also stable, just higher in viscosity. Complexed esters are widely used in synthetic lubricants - great physical properties such as pour point and VI, but not so good for high temperature coking.

Advanced POEs are branched at specific locations on the carboxylic acid moiety, thus stearically hindering water attack at the ester linkage. This also reduces the methylene hydrogens which improves high temperature oxidative stability and coking. Properly structured these are the cream of POEs for high temperature use. Overkill for car engine oils, but the darling of the latest generation jet engine oils and industrial chain lubricants.

Tom NJ


I understood everything right up until the word 'true', then you lost me. tongue2


Edited by rcy (10/19/09 08:32 PM)
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#1638071 - 10/19/09 10:50 PM Re: Study PAO VS Esther [Re: rcy]
Tom NJ Offline


Registered: 07/28/06
Posts: 845
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: rcy
I understood everything right up until the word 'true', then you lost me. tongue2


LOL

Oops, sorry. Layman's language:

- Diesters and Polyol esters can swap parts if the mixture gets too hot, and wind up growing into a larger ester.
- The larger ester is still good stuff.
- Advanced polyol esters can be built in a way that blocks water from getting to their weak spots.
- In addition to blocking water, some of their other parts get stronger and better resist attack by oxygen.
- By fixing and strengthening the weaker parts, the ester is more stable and cleaner.
- These super strong ester are loved for real high temperature uses like jets.

Tom NJ smile2

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#1638144 - 10/19/09 11:42 PM Re: Study PAO VS Esther [Re: Tom NJ]
labman Offline


Registered: 03/14/03
Posts: 8706
Loc: Nothern USA
I would still never put a mixture of di or tri basic acids and glycols or polyols both it a crankcase.

Of course, the scientific thing is to look problems.

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#1638285 - 10/20/09 01:22 AM Re: Study PAO VS Esther [Re: rcy]
JohnBrowning Offline


Registered: 05/02/03
Posts: 9448
Loc: USA
Actualy POE has proven to protect engine bearing when a coolant leak occurs no matter what type of base is being used for the coolant. POE is not so hydrolytic that it is a problem in automotive applications our even in boat applications. If you where had a device that say set in the middle of a lake or water fall and did not have any way of producing heat to burn off water vapor then some and only some types of Ester's would have problems. I think POE can pick-up and retain .02% water by volume but again the engine heat drives off water vapor and we have never seen a Redline report that had any water issues except in one Buick 3.8 I think that had a coolant leak and even then Redlines POE base stock was credited with saving the bearings!

So do not over think stuff real world application data like what we have in the used oil analysis section is worth fair more then overly simplistic generalized summations of the basic qualities of base stock's. IF water was an issue you would think all those jet engines runing ester's and flying through rain and clouds would be an issue but it is not!Same thing could be said for satalites and the space shuttle! If water was an issue the cold vaccum of space would make it show up in a hury.

You have to remember this stuff was meant for guys working in a factory trying to keep all the machines happy and healthy. Hydraulic systems are super sensitive to moisture one drop of water in a hydraulic line can ruin the anti-corrosive additives in the hydraulic fluid. So if you have a fluid that that is prone to pciking up more water then old GII type hydraulic fluids you need to know about it. You can add line dryers and you can periodically vacuum dehydrate the fluid to extend it's life and take advantage of the other properties that the POE has to offer.

Short of 4-Wheeling I doubt anyone has had to gravity separate water from their crankcase on a regular basis or their diff but large machinery that is powered by electric motors or pneumatics does not have the heat of an internal combustion engine to drive off the water so it collects in the machinery and hence in the oil.I started working on machinery while still in college. My roommate was an electronics major and I took him to a job one day. I realized what was wrong on a machine and mentioned it to my friend and his boss and from that day on I had a job and one of the most advanced factories in Michigan until I went to work for GM after I graduated college.So youhave to understand who the audience is in this article it is not really being written for the automotive enthusiast. Like wise I am sure that at your house you do not have a policy or procedure inplace to protect bulk lubricants from contamination. Different needs for different audience!

In a car ester POE,TPe and Diesters all work great their cost is the reason why they are seldom seen. Amsoil used to use Diester's but PAO will get the job done and it does it at far cheaper cost's. This means they get to make more money off the oil then they would if they went with 100% Diester like they used to. Their is nothing better about PAo it is all about PROFIT and PRICE POINT! PAO is more then up tot he job in 99% of internal combustion engines as long as you use an AN,Ester or Mineral oil to cary the additives and creat some seal swell!A $10-$16 a quart oil would not sell well on Walamrts shelfs or at AutoZone!



https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/posts/1638528/

 

[Jeffs2006EvoIX]

Its not that I don't understand the "coking" idea. I do. Its just not a problem on the Evo. I just cant say it enough. I spend more time in tuner shops looking at engine builds on cars like mine, and NONE that I have ever seen have had oil related "coking" issues. None. Even my friends race Evo with 705whp has no problems with "coking". He has taken his engine and turbo apart to check for wear more times that I can count. Here he is on the dyno.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4idQOP0RVMg

The guy you see getting out of the drivers side is my friend. The car is his West Coast Champion Evo 8 RS Redline Time Attack race car. He is the one telling me not to worry about "coking" so not to be rude, I trust the the guy. HaHa, The only arguement I have with him is, he tells me to run 20/50 RP in my street car, but for a guy that has HP on his brain, I think he forgets the practicality of "street" driven, haha. I am running Mobil 1 10w30 its what came with my car from the factory, and I am running a stock block and turbo. I think the OEM fill should hold up. I will find out as the oil analysis comes back.

 

[d00df00d]

Maybe it's "not an issue" as long as you're using good synthetics.

FWIW, I bet one of the reasons your buddy is having success with a 20w-50 is that his oil temps are high. At the temps he sees, an xw-50's viscosity is probably comparable to what an xw-40 or xw-30's viscosity would be at the temps anyone else sees.

 

[Jeffs2006EvoIX]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Maybe it's "not an issue" as long as you're using good synthetics.

FWIW, I bet one of the reasons your buddy is having success with a 20w-50 is that his oil temps are high. At the temps he sees, an xw-50's viscosity is probably comparable to what an xw-40 or xw-30's viscosity would be at the temps anyone else sees.


I agree 100% He races his car more than anything, the 50W suits his needs. I am getting bashed left and right on the Evo forums for not using a 50w, I have been using the Mobil 1 Extended Performance 10w30 for 4 yrs on my car. So far so good. But boy am I getting bashed for using it. Crazy. People really don't know oil, and coming here to this site, I have learned so much. Thanks Guys

 

[Jeffs2006EvoIX]

I have been reading probably too much info on this site and I get a little confused. It seems that "esters" do not handle corrosion well? So this may not be a good type of oil to use in lets say a car running E85 or WMI (water/meth injection)? It seems the Esters can affect the oil seals over time? But then I read in some oil sites where they "add" esters to help with oil seals. So I am confused here. I spoke with Dave at Red Line and he recommended Red Line 5w30 for my car. My owners manual says to use 10/30 for all temperature ranges. 5w30 may be used in extreme cold only. It seems also that Amsoil once was Ester based, and then switched to PAO? Makes you wonder why? Cost? Or is PAO Better? Would you have any oil seal issues switching from a PAO based oil like M1 or amsoil to ester based Redline?

 

[wiswind]

I think that it is important to keep in mind that Redling is not an ALL Ester oil.....it is a blend of a lot of "stuff".
It is the end product that is important....that being true of any brand of oil.
They will add things to the mix to address short comings of Ester.....in other words.....Redline is a BLEND of Ester and other chemicals.
In short, I would not be concerned about seals with Redline.
Also, from reading posts over the years from people on here who know FAR more than I do, Redline is on the "thick" or high end of the 30 range, AND it is very good for staying "in grade".
It is not loaded up with Viscosity Index Improvers (VIIs)to break down.

 

[Jeffs2006EvoIX]

Yes that is very true. With the Mobil 1 Extended Performance 10w30 I am currently using the HTHS is 3.3 with a flashpoint of 473F where as the Redline 5w30 (recommended by Dave at RL for my application) has a HTHS of 3.8 and a flashpoint of 486F. This proves the film strength is pretty stout no doubt. I just don't want to run into any issues with seal compatibility. Has anyone every heard of such a thing? RL is actually a bargain in the "race" oil venu at $9.95 p/qt. Most others run $11-$15 p/qt.

Would all the Moly and ZDDP in RL cause more wear in a car that doesn't really need it? Also, would that moly help in a turbo charged car? I am thinking the turbo shaft bearing should love that moly. May help spool up. Thoughts on that?

 

[AzFireGuy79]

POE's have good seal compatibility, so not sure why you are second guessing that. True redline does blend other "chemicals" as one person put it, into their oils. That said, it does contain a good amount of POE and as such is a POE oil. I have had it in a toyota tacoma for going on 95K miles, no leaks. Toyota camry 65K 0 leaks. Countless other cars including a 96 SS Camaro with a 1,200 hp ERL LS2 with a GT47-88 turbo Redline 5w30...... Yeah it's not scientific, but I have yet to have a leak much less a worn or dirty engine with RL.

As far as turbo protection goes, not many oils will touch RL. The extra ZDDP and moly wont hurt anything, although ZDDP is more for flat tappet motors. BTW you got yourself a cool car there. My car is still street legal (has a ten point cage rated to 8.50 in the 1/4). Even so, something a bit more tame with a turbo is sometimes the best as I only have so much in the way of traction on the street.

 

[Ben99GT]

Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
It seems that "esters" do not handle corrosion well?


Read posts by Tom NJ, disregard most others. According to Tom (I'm paraphrasing), the acids released by the breakdown of esters are weak fatty esters that themselves can act something like corrosion inhibitors, not the strong corrosive acids released by the breakdown mineral and PAO oils.

Quote:
So this may not be a good type of oil to use in lets say a car running E85 or WMI (water/meth injection)?


Redline shines in top fuel dragsters that run on methanol, this is not the case.

Quote:
It seems the Esters can affect the oil seals over time?


Esters provide more seal swell, too much ester can cause seal compatibility issues. Red Line is a blend of polyol ester (POE) and PAO.

Quote:
But then I read in some oil sites where they "add" esters to help with oil seals.


Yes, because PAO and Group III oils have minimal polarity and provide little seal swell, so some blenders will use esters of some type or ANs in small percentages to improve polarity and seal swell.

Quote:
I spoke with Dave at Red Line and he recommended Red Line 5w30 for my car. My owners manual says to use 10/30 for all temperature ranges.


Red Line 5w30 is built like a straight weight oil, meaning it contains no viscosity index improvers/polymeric thickeners. In most cases a 10w30 oil is more robust than a 5w30 due to less VIIs, but not in Red Line's case. They just use a different blend of POE's to achieve the better cold weather performance. Note that Red Line 5w30 has the exact same HTHS viscosity and NOACK % as Red Line 10w30. I actually see no point in the existence of Red Line 10w30, I assume they offer it just because it is such a popular grade.

Quote:
It seems also that Amsoil once was Ester based, and then switched to PAO?


I believe Amsoil was once diester based.

Quote:
Makes you wonder why? Cost?


PAO is much cheaper.

Quote:
Or is PAO Better?


PAO generally provides slightly better cold temperature performance, but in almost every other regard that matters to a lubricant (lubricity, polarity, solvency, solubility, high temp deposit control, etc.) polyol ester is far superior.

Yes, this test was performed at a much higher temperature than seen in most engines but it should give you an idea of how clean each base oil burns.

Quote:
Would you have any oil seal issues switching from a PAO based oil like M1 or amsoil to ester based Redline?


No. You may see some slight oil consumption on the initial changeover for the first thousand miles or so (sometimes happens when switching brands regardless), but after that I've noted the lowest oil consumption of any oil I've used. Red Line is actually less prone to leak than other synthetic oils from what I have observed.

 

[Jeffs2006EvoIX]

great info here. Seems the Red Line 5w30 is the ticket for me. I like the 1200hp LS2 car running 8's. Crazy. Im not much of a drag guy, I like road course racing, where the Evo really shines. I did run a 12.1 1/4 mile on 91 pump and street tires. Mind you, stock block stock turbo on 91 [censored] gas. Not too bad for a 4 banger that I drive everyday and still pulls 19mpg's in town and 25mpg's on the highway. My Evo is VERY TAME compared to most on the road. You definately gotta love the Evo.

I will have to really consider the use of Redline. I really think its the best bang for the performance buck.

 

[Jeffs2006EvoIX]

It seems from what I have been reading all over the net is that the Ester based Oils like Redline and Motul etc, being that they are derived from Ester Base Stocks actually "cling" to the metal parts better than a PAO based oil? This interests me since my car rips to 8K RPM not often on the street, but on the AUTOX course im bouncing of the rev limiter at 8K in 2nd gear.

I would just think that any oil that can actually "cling" to metal better than another would be worth considering. I realize that most oils have a combination of Esters and PAO but if one oil has more of a "clinging" affect vs another wouldn't that oil, in theory be the better oil to use?

I see that RP claims that their oil "clings to metal parts tenaciously" so does this mean they have allot of Esters in their oil?

I spoke to dave at Redline and he is recommending 5w30 for my Evo, my other choices were going to be either RP XPR 5w30 or Amsoil Dominator 10/30. I am using M1 now, but anything I can do to help the car out, I will do it. Even if its spending $3-4 more per qt of oil. My car never goes over 3K on oil changes anyway. Not advisable to go much farther than that in an Evo or STi.

Thoughts?

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
It seems from what I have been reading all over the net is that the Ester based Oils like Redline and Motul etc, being that they are derived from Ester Base Stocks actually "cling" to the metal parts better than a PAO based oil? This interests me since my car rips to 8K RPM not often on the street, but on the AUTOX course im bouncing of the rev limiter at 8K in 2nd gear.

Or, maybe those ester oils oils run reduced levels of other additives, leaving the net effect similar. Gotta look at the whole formulation.


Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
I would just think that any oil that can actually "cling" to metal better than another would be worth considering. I realize that most oils have a combination of Esters and PAO but if one oil has more of a "clinging" affect vs another wouldn't that oil, in theory be the better oil to use?

Possibly. But again, there's no way to know without knowing the whole formulation, and you can't do that unless you either convince the companies to divulge proprietary info or test it yourself (which would be a WHOLE other kettle of fish).


Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
I spoke to dave at Redline and he is recommending 5w30 for my Evo, my other choices were going to be either RP XPR 5w30 or Amsoil Dominator 10/30. I am using M1 now, but anything I can do to help the car out, I will do it. Even if its spending $3-4 more per qt of oil. My car never goes over 3K on oil changes anyway. Not advisable to go much farther than that in an Evo or STi.

Thoughts?

Have you considered Motul 300V? It comes in 5w30.

I also suspect RLI 0w30 would do really well. They recently tweaked the formulation and AFAIK it checks all the right boxes for your app.

 

[GMorg]

Esters do have an impact on buffering capacity over time. The topic of TBN and TAN as they relate to ester-based oils has been discussed many times. So, there is a TBN relationship between the final formulations of ester-based oils vs GrpIII or PAO oils.

Similarly, since ester oils are polar and can compete with additives at surfaces, ester-based oils generally require higher levels of surface reactive additives.

 

[Jeffs2006EvoIX]

Originally Posted By: GMorg
Esters do have an impact on buffering capacity over time. The topic of TBN and TAN as they relate to ester-based oils has been discussed many times. So, there is a TBN relationship between the final formulations of ester-based oils vs GrpIII or PAO oils.

Similarly, since ester oils are polar and can compete with additives at surfaces, ester-based oils generally require higher levels of surface reactive additives.


Does this explain the high moly count in Redline? Would that be cosidered a surface reactive additve? I have also been reading up on the whole "moly plating" affect. Royal Purple claims this to happen with use of their oil, but Redline carries more Moly than RP does. So in this case does Redline Moly Plate? or is all that moly just needed for the Ester Base Stocks?

 

[deven]

AFAIK, RP does not claim "moly plating" anywhere in their literature. However they do claim having a micro-polishing effect or "mirror" finish effect by using their oil.
I have exchanged emails with Dave @ Red Line about their use of moly in high amounts and he claims it has nothing to do with reactive additives but everything to do with freeing up more HP and recoup their lost gas mileage that comes with their high HTHS oils.