Esters Vs. PAO

[Jeffs2006EvoIX]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
I'm Looking for the best oil to put in my car and stick with it.

No such thing.

You have to define what you mean by "best."


That easy to answer. "Best" oil for my application. Not "Best" Oil Period. That I will agree. That just doesn't exhist.

 

[wiswind]

As for viscocity, I would stick to what the manufacturer states is correct to use.
The only time to deviate from that is if some unique rebuild/modification has taken place and/or someone who REALLY knows what they are doing says to do something different.
I am NOT someone in the position to advise anyone to use a oil outside the manufacturers recommendations.

No, I don't have an "performance" vehicle.......a 2003 Toyota Sienna......a appliance on wheels.
I like to keep my vehicles a long time and get lots of RELIABLE life out of them.
I am sure that someone would be quick to point out that I can do very well with a cheaper oil than I use, and they are correct.
For me, getting a little more is worth it.....I am doing the labor myself, so I like to buy top quality products with the money I save by doing the labor myself.
I tend to go 10 years or so between vehicle purchases, and I buy 3 or more years old......the current vehicle purchased at 7 years old, so I get more value for my money out of a vehicle over the long haul than most people do....by no small margin.

You asked about Redline, and that is an oil that is highly regarded by people with high performance engines......not too many people like myself with a youth group hauler running it as it is super overkill for my application.
I am sure that it is an oil that you can use and not worry at all about it doing its job.

 

[DragRace]

Originally Posted By: wiswind
As for viscocity, I would stick to what the manufacturer states is correct to use.
The only time to deviate from that is if some unique rebuild/modification has taken place and/or someone who REALLY knows what they are doing says to do something different.
I am NOT someone in the position to advise anyone to use a oil outside the manufacturers recommendations.

No, I don't have an "performance" vehicle.......a 2003 Toyota Sienna......a appliance on wheels.
I like to keep my vehicles a long time and get lots of RELIABLE life out of them.
I am sure that someone would be quick to point out that I can do very well with a cheaper oil than I use, and they are correct.
For me, getting a little more is worth it.....I am doing the labor myself, so I like to buy top quality products with the money I save by doing the labor myself.
I tend to go 10 years or so between vehicle purchases, and I buy 3 or more years old......the current vehicle purchased at 7 years old, so I get more value for my money out of a vehicle over the long haul than most people do....by no small margin.

You asked about Redline, and that is an oil that is highly regarded by people with high performance engines......not too many people like myself with a youth group hauler running it as it is super overkill for my application.
I am sure that it is an oil that you can use and not worry at all about it doing its job.


Redline is overkill for my Explorer as well,but with our cold winters we've got here,I wanted something with good cold-flow #'s,and not have to worry about crawling underneath a cold,snow melting vehicle until the warm weather returns.

 

[Ben99GT]

Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
Additionally, The Evo runs very rich AFR's even when tuned. So if Ester based oils don't do so well with fuel contamination, then that may not be the oil to use in my case. My Evo runs 11.0 AFR's while most of your cars are running 13.0 AFR's or higher. Oil tests will help and I plan on doing them in the near future. Maybe the PAO based oils may be better for my application based on the AFR's alone.

Comments?


Actually, ester based oils tend to shine in fuel diluting applications. Red Line, Motul and Renewable Lubricants tend to be the oils people turn to combat against the side-effects of fuel dilution.

I'm sure saaber1 will chime in on this.

 

[aquariuscsm]

Concerning base stocks,are esters or pao`s better in rear differentials (GL5 gear oils)? I`ve contemplated on trying Redline GL5 in my car`s rear diff when the time comes. Wonder which one is better at protecting gears?

 

[Ben99GT]

Tom NJ needs to chime in on this thread.

Obviously I'm no expert, Tom is, but I would think that POE's polar nature and natural lubricity would really shine in rear differentials. That's precisely why I run RL gear oils. Even when I finally move away from $9/qt ester motor oils in the F150, I will definitely stick with ester-based gear oils.

 

[DragRace]

Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
Tom NJ needs to chime in on this thread.

Obviously I'm no expert, Tom is, but I would think that POE's polar nature and natural lubricity would really shine in rear differentials. That's precisely why I run RL gear oils. Even when I finally move away from $9/qt ester motor oils in the F150, I will definitely stick with ester-based gear oils.


FWIW,

When I had the 8.8 rear-end built for the mustang,the shop that put it together advised I use standard differential fluid. The reason? The break-in and wear pattern on the gears are alot better. After I heard this,I talked to alotta guys @ the dragstrip and most guys are running standard differential fluid for this reason.

 

[Ben99GT]

Originally Posted By: DragRace
Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
Tom NJ needs to chime in on this thread.

Obviously I'm no expert, Tom is, but I would think that POE's polar nature and natural lubricity would really shine in rear differentials. That's precisely why I run RL gear oils. Even when I finally move away from $9/qt ester motor oils in the F150, I will definitely stick with ester-based gear oils.


FWIW,

When I had the 8.8 rear-end built for the mustang,the shop that put it together advised I use standard differential fluid. The reason? The break-in and wear pattern on the gears are alot better. After I heard this,I talked to alotta guys @ the dragstrip and most guys are running standard differential fluid for this reason.


I believe you can thank Currie Enterprises for a lot of this misinformation. The simple truth is the wear/mesh pattern is 100% established during setup, and the only real break in required for gears is a few heat cycles. This can/will happen regardless of the fluid.

My buddy, a Ford Double Senior Master, just installed a set of FRPP 4.56s and broke them in on Red Line Heavy Shockproof. No noises, no issues, he floored the [censored] out of it 10 minutes after filling the differential up, debunking a myth. Proper setup determines how quiet and long lived the ring & pinion are, not what's in there during "break in". When I install my 4.88s I will break them in on Red Line Lightweight Shockproof.

Keep in mind that Ford, among many other manufacturers, fill their diffs up with synthetic at the factory and then claim it is lifetime fill. No dino, no replacing the fluid after "break in" and rarely ever a noise or issue over the life of the rear end. In fact, I've blown engines, trans, ripped out torque boxes but to this day have yet to have ring & pinion or differential failure and have always run synthetic gear oils.

I firmly believe some of these aftermarket rear end builders used synthetic oil as a scapegoat for sub-par assembly. Perhaps it's possible that some synthetic oils just aren't that good, I don't know, but I haven't experienced ANY issues with Motorcraft Synthetic, Royal Purple, Mobil 1, Red Line GL5 or Red Line Shockproof gear oils. It's easier and more convenient to blame somebody else than to take responsibility for a few out of spec rear ends, IMHO.

 

[Ben99GT]

Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
Perhaps it's possible that some synthetic oils just aren't that good, I don't know, but I haven't experienced ANY issues with Motorcraft Synthetic, Royal Purple, Mobil 1, Red Line GL5 or Red Line Shockproof gear oils.


You can also add Amsoil Severe Gear to that list of no problems with synthetic gear oil.

 

[aquariuscsm]

I wonder how Amsoil`s pao rear diff oils compare to Redline`s ester rear diff oils when it comes to gear protection?

 

[Ben99GT]

Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
I wonder how Amsoil`s pao rear diff oils compare to Redline`s ester rear diff oils when it comes to gear protection?


I would wager ester based oils would do a better job of protecting differential gears but have no hard proof.

 

[Tom NJ]

It's really the additives, usually active S&P EP additives, that carry the load in hypoid gear applications. Synthetics will improve low temperature flow, but often have little effect on high temperature performance because consumer automotive gear boxes just don't get very hot, and the active sulfur from unstable EP additives essentially kills the oil's oxidative stability anyhow. In theory ester based oils will provide some lubricity, but whether that will show through the additive effects has not been shown to my knowledge.

Tom NJ (on vacation in Ireland)

 

[vxcalais]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
Redline seems to always have High Moly, High ZDDP but Low TBN's, is this because its Ester Based?

No. It's because that's how they like to formulate for the people they think will be buying their stuff.


Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
It seems Mobil 1 Extended Performance's and Amsoil Have TBN's in the 12's.
Does the PAO have higher TBN's and if so how does this play into the choice of what to use?

PAO and TBN are not related.

Mobil 1 Extended Performance and Amsoil oils tend to have high TBNs because they are designed to tolerate certain kinds of contamination and run fairly long oil change intervals.

Now, PAO is usually a good base stock for tolerating contamination and running long OCIs as well, which is why you frequently see PAO and high TBNs together. But it's not like they are linked or anything.


Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
I have read nothing bad about Redline, I was considering the 5w30 for my Evo, but what oil do you use? Just try them both or what? haha.

What's your goal here? What are you trying to achieve? Protection, long OCIs, bang-for-the-buck, fuel economy, fast turbo spooling...? Spell it out.


I always thought PAO had poor solvency and mixing and was very poor at cleaning on its own, which is why it needs the extra added cleansing additives adding to TBN. Group 3 is the same. Esters have a natural cleaning characteristic, same as Group 1 and 2, but contaminants can form out of Group 1 oils as they are not as refined etc. Correct me if i am wrong anyone. This is only how i have understood it all this time.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
That easy to answer. "Best" oil for my application. Not "Best" Oil Period. That I will agree. That just doesn't exhist.

Right, but...


Best protection at all costs? Best bang-for-the-buck? Longest oil change intervals? Some combination thereof?

Do you prefer store-bought? How willing are you to order all your oil online?

What are your driving cycles like? Do you need something that will tolerate the stresses of both daily driving and track days, or are you the type to drive hard if you drive at all? Any stop-and-go on your commute?

etc.


Asking for the best oil is like asking for the best food. It can vary from day to day, let alone from person to person. We need to narrow things down a bit.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: vxcalais
I always thought PAO had poor solvency and mixing and was very poor at cleaning on its own, which is why it needs the extra added cleansing additives adding to TBN. Group 3 is the same. Esters have a natural cleaning characteristic, same as Group 1 and 2, but contaminants can form out of Group 1 oils as they are not as refined etc. Correct me if i am wrong anyone. This is only how i have understood it all this time.

Good point. I'm sure that's a factor.

As I understand, not all cleaning additives add to TBN, and I'm pretty sure TBN isn't entirely accounted for by cleaning additives, so the relationship between PAO and TBN still isn't direct.

 

[boxcartommie22]

fwiw, i spoked to motul yesterday and asked about their 300v oils tech support said there is absolutlely no pao in this oil
!! it is 100% ester.

 

[AzFireGuy79]

Which could be a good or bad thing depending upon the end goal.

 

[ItsuMitsubishi]

Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
All good oils are a mix of Group III, IV (PAO) and V (Ester) components.


I would tend to think, by reading pros like Tom NJ, bruce and molakule, that the theoretical "optimal" oil would be a POE/PAO blend. PAO to keep seal swell/seal compatibility in check and to help improve low temperature pump-ability, POE to provide the solvency/additive solubility/polarity/lubricity/deposit control. Both bases can provide high VIs, and both are very clean by nature. I honestly can't of anything group III would bring to the table in a PAO/POE mix other than lower costs. This a big part of why I chose to use Red Line because it is a POE/PAO blend with a tough additive package. Even though it is certainly overkill, I like overkill (or over-built) products.


+1 on that. POE/PAO blend is pretty synergistic and performs very well. Any benefit adding GrIII(+) will have, is lowering cost.

 

[hate2work]

To expand on what Magnum eluded to, heat is the enemy of oil. Many turbo owners let their engine run a few minutes before shutting off the engine. The idea of idling before shutdown is to let the turbo cool off. If you switch off the car with a HOT turbo, the oil in the turbo cooling channels can solidify ("coke") and of course that would be a bad thing.

It might be a good practice to drive lightly (little or no turbo boost) for the last little leg of any trip to let the kit cool down. Alternatively, let the engine idle for a while before you switch off. How long? That depends on a lot of factors like journey length and speed, ambient temperature, your gear selection and driving style, weight and cleanliness of your engine oil, etc.

It's generally accepted that certain oils withstand higher temps better than other oils. When running a turbo car, it's important to run an oil that can "take the heat", so to speak. Both GC and Redline oils are well suited for that kind of application. And Amsoil makes an excellent oil as well.

 

[Jeffs2006EvoIX]

Originally Posted By: hate2work

To expand on what Magnum eluded to, heat is the enemy of oil. Many turbo owners let their engine run a few minutes before shutting off the engine. The idea of idling before shutdown is to let the turbo cool off. If you switch off the car with a HOT turbo, the oil in the turbo cooling channels can solidify ("coke") and of course that would be a bad thing.

It might be a good practice to drive lightly (little or no turbo boost) for the last little leg of any trip to let the kit cool down. Alternatively, let the engine idle for a while before you switch off. How long? That depends on a lot of factors like journey length and speed, ambient temperature, your gear selection and driving style, weight and cleanliness of your engine oil, etc.

It's generally accepted that certain oils withstand higher temps better than other oils. When running a turbo car, it's important to run an oil that can "take the heat", so to speak. Both GC and Redline oils are well suited for that kind of application. And Amsoil makes an excellent oil as well.





Good point on driving "conservitive" the last leg of the trip home with a turbo car. I do just that. The Idleing down part really isn't necessary any longer since most turbos of the day are water and oil cooled, so the temp of the turbo stays consistant. Its not like the old days when a turbo was pushed you can actually see it glow red. But when that engine shuts off, oil does still sit in the journal bearings of the turbo and can cause issues over time. Is why synthetics are recommended for them.

When I contacted Redline, they recommended a 5w30 for my application and they are a "semi" local company here in California. I may give them a try. I just don't like how I don't see any certification labels on their oils at all. Not that my car is under warranty any loger but still. Is there any seal swell diferences in the use of an ester based oil vs a PAO or are the additives for seals the same throughout the spectrum of oils?