Esters Vs. PAO

[Jeffs2006EvoIX]

I have read over 45 pages of used oil analysis looking up info on different oils. Only a couple of oils really seem to be very consistant in certain categories.

Redline seems to always have High Moly, High ZDDP but Low TBN's, is this because its Ester Based?

It seems Mobil 1 Extended Performance's and Amsoil Have TBN's in the 12's.
Does the PAO have higher TBN's and if so how does this play into the choice of what to use?

I have read nothing bad about Redline, I was considering the 5w30 for my Evo, but what oil do you use? Just try them both or what? haha.

 

[dparm]

ZDDP and ester/pao content are unrelated. Ester/PAO are the basestocks, ZDDP is purely an additive. TBN is also largely unrelated, though typically ester-heavy oils need higher TBNs.

BTW -- there's no need to start 3 new threads about oil when you could've just kept your existing discussion going.

 

[tinmanSC]

 

[warrior]

Originally Posted By: dparm
ZDDP and ester/pao content are unrelated. Ester/PAO are the basestocks, ZDDP is purely an additive. TBN is also largely unrelated, though typically ester-heavy oils need higher TBNs.

BTW -- there's no need to start 3 new threads about oil when you could've just kept your existing discussion going.
How rude!

 

[dparm]

Not trying to be a jerk, but now he'll have to re-explain everything he already shared in his posts from earlier today.

 

[Jeffs2006EvoIX]

You know guys I do keep posting on my other posts but no one responds to them. Its just me on it like 4 times. So I start new threads to get peoples attention.

In this post, the PAO oils seem to have higher base numbers than Ester based oils. I just wonder why that is? Is the TBN important if your changing oil every 3K miles anyway? ZDDP content I think is important as is moly for a turbo charged car IMO. Seems Redline is more consistant at having higher numbers of ZDDP and Moly over any other oil in the 30W category.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
Redline seems to always have High Moly, High ZDDP but Low TBN's, is this because its Ester Based?

No. It's because that's how they like to formulate for the people they think will be buying their stuff.


Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
It seems Mobil 1 Extended Performance's and Amsoil Have TBN's in the 12's.
Does the PAO have higher TBN's and if so how does this play into the choice of what to use?

PAO and TBN are not related.

Mobil 1 Extended Performance and Amsoil oils tend to have high TBNs because they are designed to tolerate certain kinds of contamination and run fairly long oil change intervals.

Now, PAO is usually a good base stock for tolerating contamination and running long OCIs as well, which is why you frequently see PAO and high TBNs together. But it's not like they are linked or anything.


Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
I have read nothing bad about Redline, I was considering the 5w30 for my Evo, but what oil do you use? Just try them both or what? haha.

What's your goal here? What are you trying to achieve? Protection, long OCIs, bang-for-the-buck, fuel economy, fast turbo spooling...? Spell it out.

 

[AzFireGuy79]

Do yourself a favor and call Dave over at Redline Oil. He is the guy with the answers. Regardless, you wont be changing RL at 3,000 miles. Many have run RL to 10K miles with fairly decent used oil analysis. Terry Dyson figured out that a POE like RL can be run to a TBN of 0 using blackstones methods, whereas other oil bases are not allowed this same limit.

On a side note Im kind of disappointed at some of the long time members here being so rude to you. Come on guys we are better than this. He is just trying to get some sound advice.

 

[deven]

This is actually an interesting topic. To expand on what Jeff asked, how does one attain a higher TBN or what exactly in an oil determines an oil have a TBN of 12, 10 or even 8?

 

[d00df00d]

Additives.

 

[UNC017]

Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX

In this post, the PAO oils seem to have higher base numbers than Ester based oils. I just wonder why that is? Is the TBN important if your changing oil every 3K miles anyway? ZDDP content I think is important as is moly for a turbo charged car IMO. Seems Redline is more consistant at having higher numbers of ZDDP and Moly over any other oil in the 30W category.


All good oils are a mix of Group III, IV (PAO) and V (Ester) components. Each one brings something to the table. Which stock is dominant doesn't necessarily matter. Take three excellent oils:

Redline (predominately ester)
Rotella (Group III+)
Mobil 1 0w40 (probably mostly PAO, but they don't really tell)

They all work great and I'd use any of them. The Redline doesn't have low TBN because its ester, its got low TBN because its intended as a very high-performance oil that will likely be changed often. Adding a lot of TBN increasing additives would just take up space that they can use for anti-wear and extreme pressure additives.

Rotella, on the other hand, has very high TBN because its main application is diesel engines with very long drain intervals. Its also intended for the heat of turbocharger applications.

And since you mention the turbo application, I think you're laboring under a misconception. Turbos are not particularly hard on oil at all.. its the HEAT SOAK after you shut a turbo down that is hard on the oil, and that's where a good synthetic (including Group III+) base stock like Rotella has can be very beneficial. What is actually hardest on the oil inside an engine is high-pressure sliding contact- things like non-roller cam followers (aka "lifters") in older pushrod engines with high valve spring pressures, gear driven accessories (like oil pumps), and of course the main and rod bearings.

 

[Ben99GT]

Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
All good oils are a mix of Group III, IV (PAO) and V (Ester) components.


I would tend to think, by reading pros like Tom NJ, bruce and molakule, that the theoretical "optimal" oil would be a POE/PAO blend. PAO to keep seal swell/seal compatibility in check and to help improve low temperature pump-ability, POE to provide the solvency/additive solubility/polarity/lubricity/deposit control. Both bases can provide high VIs, and both are very clean by nature. I honestly can't of anything group III would bring to the table in a PAO/POE mix other than lower costs. This a big part of why I chose to use Red Line because it is a POE/PAO blend with a tough additive package. Even though it is certainly overkill, I like overkill (or over-built) products.

 

[DragRace]

Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
I have read over 45 pages of used oil analysis looking up info on different oils. Only a couple of oils really seem to be very consistant in certain categories.

Redline seems to always have High Moly, High ZDDP but Low TBN's, is this because its Ester Based?

It seems Mobil 1 Extended Performance's and Amsoil Have TBN's in the 12's.
Does the PAO have higher TBN's and if so how does this play into the choice of what to use?

I have read nothing bad about Redline, I was considering the 5w30 for my Evo, but what oil do you use? Just try them both or what? haha.


I ran Redline's 0w30 all last winter.I put it in in november and didnt drain it until June.I emailed dave @ redline and he pretty much said its a 10,000 mile oil.Even though I didnt put 10,000 miles on the oil,8-months I left it alone,and when it was drained,it still looked good.It was only slightly darker then when I first put it in,and no I didnt do a used oil analysis.

I'll be running it this winter as well,it's a tough oil,if you wanna try it,go for it,just dont drain it out too soon,get your $$$'s worth

 

[lipadj46]

Originally Posted By: deven
This is actually an interesting topic. To expand on what Jeff asked, how does one attain a higher TBN or what exactly in an oil determines an oil have a TBN of 12, 10 or even 8?


TBN is a concentration with units of mg KOH/g oil

 

[saaber1]

Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
The Redline doesn't have low TBN because its ester, its got low TBN because its intended as a very high-performance oil that will likely be changed often. Adding a lot of TBN increasing additives would just take up space that they can use for...

This is incorrect according to Redline. They say routinely that their oils can run 10k-15k depending on use.

The "take up space" portion is also incorrect. TBN and TAN is difficult to interpret in Ester based oils as we cannot apply the same rules we normally think of when discussing group III, IV etc. oils. This is why we often see such "strange" results when looking at TAN and TBN on Ester based oil used oil analysis. For example RLI oils sometimes lose TAN, instead of increase as we would expect.

Similarly Ester based oils sometimes have lower TBNs. Most of the redline oils I have seen have a starting TBN around 8.3-8.5 or so. A few (5w40 is one as I recall) has a TBN of around 10.1 or so. This should not be correlated with oils such as some of the low SAPS PAO oils, for example, which have a TBN starting at around 6.5

There really is a different set of rules regarding TBN and TAN for ester based oils and honestly there aren't many people knowledgeable enough about it to to tell us exactly. Tom NJ, Terry Dyson, and Molakule would certainly be knowledgeable enough but the rest of us are doing our best without the type of knowledge these very knowledeable folks have.

Here is a good thread on the TBN and TAN topic as it relates to ester based oils:

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/posts/1584125/

I also agree with Ben99GT about the theoretical optimal mix.

 

[wiswind]

Folks have been reporting outstanding technical support from Redline, fast and honest answers to questions.
If you go to the Redline website, they have a "contact us" that you can click and then ask your question.

If you use Redline, I would push out your oil change interval from the 3000 miles to at least 5000 miles, which would still be overkill.
I have been running Redline Oil for some time, in a non-turbo, non performance engine for some time now.
I do a 5K Oil Change Interval, which is overkill....both oil and OCI.
I ran the 5W-20 in a motor that called for that viscosity and at over 229K miles, the valvetrain area was super clean.
I currently run 5w30 in a motor that calls for that viscosity.
It is a very good product, great heat tolerance, great cold flow, and great cleaning.
It is not designed as a super long drain product, like Amsoil's 25K mile, but folks report it being excellent for up to 10K or 15K, depending upon the application and how many miles you put on in a year.
If you go with Redline, the best price that I have found is through OGracing.
Right now....
A case of 12 quarts of 5w30 is $109.45
A case of 12 quarts of 0w30 is $120.45
Buy a case, and you get free shipping.
If you don't mind the price,(not an oil for the guy that shops the oil based upon what is on sale) you will be very happy with Redline Oils.
If you go with Amsoil, I would go through one of the members here who are Amsoil dealers, great people.

 

[saaber1]

Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
Redline seems to always have High Moly, High ZDDP but Low TBN's, is this because its Ester Based?

Yes and No, The high moly is because that is the additive package redline uses. But the additive package cannot be looked at independent of the total fomulation (including base oils). It's very possible they are using high doses of moly because of the base-oil chemistry.

In some formulas (all except 5w40 and 15w40) high amounts of moly (>600ppm) appear to be used as a friction modifier. As I understand it, to function as a friction modifier in an ester-based formula, very large amount of Moly DTC's are needed to overcome surface competition with the esters. There has been some discussion as to whether these large amounts of sulphur containing additives contribute to higher TAN levels in the oil. They also use high ZDDP as you said and the TBN has been discussed above. The biggest thing I am curious about with redline at the moment is do the high moly formulations build up acids faster than the low moly formulations, especially in engines which have high amounts of fuel dilution. Don't know that we'll get the answer anytime soon, just something I'm curious about.

 

[Jeffs2006EvoIX]

Thank You everyone for your reply's. I am here to gain knowledge and apply it. I just notice most people on this site shoot for the Long haul out of an oil. Its just in my car? I mean, im not mocking anyone here, but how many cars do you guys have that push 200bhp per liter? How many hours have you guys been on the dyno tuning to gain just 2 hp there, and 2lbs tq there? It all varies by the car you drive. If you drive a prius, most likely you don't care about HP or Tq but want MPG's. In my case, I have spent LOTS of man hours and a decent amount of money to make my Evo reliable, dependable and practical to use. I am not an "oil guy" I am a "car guy" and this is all new to me. All I know, is when my tuner and friend, said to use a 20/50 oil in my car?? it just didn't sound right. That is why I initially went to this site to get information. I know I ask allot of repetitous stuff and I try my best to search before I ask anything. Its just, most of these oil companies all say prety much the same thing. "ours is the best". All the oil tests here vary quite a bit based on engine type and use. I see them more as an average. This is a very interesting site, with allot of information to soak in. Someone asked why I am here? What am I looking for?? I'm Looking for the best oil to put in my car and stick with it. Period. Thanks for all your help and advice. I really appreciate it.

 

[Jeffs2006EvoIX]

Additionally, The Evo runs very rich AFR's even when tuned. So if Ester based oils don't do so well with fuel contamination, then that may not be the oil to use in my case. My Evo runs 11.0 AFR's while most of your cars are running 13.0 AFR's or higher. Oil tests will help and I plan on doing them in the near future. Maybe the PAO based oils may be better for my application based on the AFR's alone.

Comments?

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
I'm Looking for the best oil to put in my car and stick with it.

No such thing.

You have to define what you mean by "best."