Engines with questionable designs

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Originally Posted by demarpaint
Originally Posted by 4WD
The belt on our 2007 Pentastar had a 100k PM … to do the water pump at the same time was $70 more … no brainer


2007 Pentastar. Is that a typo?


Seems questionable.
lol.gif
 
Originally Posted by Dave Sherman
Originally Posted by Snagglefoot
I was looking at the 3.5 liter DOHC ford engine as found in the Ford Fusion. People on the Fusion forum were complaining on the high cost of a water pump replacement and that some of these water pumps can fail at 85,000 miles. Ford books 10 hrs for the repair. The pump is nestled underneath the timing cover, not over top it like the older Vulcan 3.0 V6.

What other engines have quirky designs that would take an ordinary component repair and turn it into a 10 hr marathon?
smile.gif



Ooh, that would be the 3.6 V6 I had in my 2010 Traverse. Okay, maybe it shouldn't be an "ordinary" repair, but thanks to poor design, the 3 timing chains on 2009-2010 Traverses were prone to wearing out and needing replacement when the valve timing errors popped up. Can't be done with the engine in the vehicle, it has to come out. How does it come out? Not through the hood, but through the underside. That means disconnecting the propeller shaft, steering shaft, brake lines, A/C lines, upper struts, transmission cooler lines, shift linkage, and dropping the whole front frame; engine, transmission, and all. That's on top of the usual things to disconnect from the engine like exhaust, fuel lines, coolant hoses, and wiring harnesses. When it all goes back together, you have to bleed the brake system, do a front end alignment, and evacuate and recharge the A/C. Typically a $3000 or more job, and I've heard some folks have had to have them replaced more than once.





I wonder how many owners decided to trade in the vehicle and get a new one?
 
Originally Posted by exranger06
Originally Posted by WyrTwister
From what I read , engines with a timing belt often have the WP under the timing cover .

Big difference between a timing cover on a chain-driven engine and one on a belt-driven engine. Belt-driven has a plastic cover that's designed to be at least somewhat accessible and easy to remove, AND does not have to seal in any oil or coolant. Timing cover on a chain-driven engine has to prevent oil and usually also coolant from leaking out and are generally much more difficult to remove. You also rarely have to replace a water pump on a belt-driven engine due to failure, since they (should) always get replaced when you replace the timing belt so you don't have to do all the labor again. As a result, they usually get replaced long before they fail.

Yes, even with a timing belt the water pump is still external to the engine. When it fails or starts to fail the coolant will leak out where you can see it on the ground. Not so with the Chrysler pump. A completely different design and much more involved to replace.
 
Originally Posted by exranger06
Originally Posted by WyrTwister
From what I read , engines with a timing belt often have the WP under the timing cover .

Luckily , our 2015 Chevy Sonic 1.8i has the WP on the outside . :-)

Big difference between a timing cover on a chain-driven engine and one on a belt-driven engine. Belt-driven has a plastic cover that's designed to be at least somewhat accessible and easy to remove, AND does not have to seal in any oil or coolant. Timing cover on a chain-driven engine has to prevent oil and usually also coolant from leaking out and are generally much more difficult to remove. You also rarely have to replace a water pump on a belt-driven engine due to failure, since they (should) always get replaced when you replace the timing belt so you don't have to do all the labor again. As a result, they usually get replaced long before they fail.


Yep .
 
I had a 95 Caprice Classic with the 4.3L V8, what a load of crap that car was. It had the distributor cap and rotor behind the water pump. I often wondered how the person/people that would design something like that gets hired.
 
The 6.0L Ford diesel. You have to remove the entire electric fan clutch and shroud to replace the serpentine belt. The Duramax water pump is an 8 hr job , mainly because you must remove the harmonic balancer just at to get to 1 lousy bolt.
 
Yep, Chrysler 2.7 is a joke. If you do the water pump or timing belt you might as well replace the other.
 
Originally Posted by ZZman
Yep, Chrysler 2.7 is a joke. If you do the water pump or timing belt you might as well replace the other.

The Chrysler 2.7 had a timing chain however.
 
Originally Posted by PimTac
Originally Posted by Dave Sherman
Originally Posted by Snagglefoot
I was looking at the 3.5 liter DOHC ford engine as found in the Ford Fusion. People on the Fusion forum were complaining on the high cost of a water pump replacement and that some of these water pumps can fail at 85,000 miles. Ford books 10 hrs for the repair. The pump is nestled underneath the timing cover, not over top it like the older Vulcan 3.0 V6.

What other engines have quirky designs that would take an ordinary component repair and turn it into a 10 hr marathon?
smile.gif



Ooh, that would be the 3.6 V6 I had in my 2010 Traverse. Okay, maybe it shouldn't be an "ordinary" repair, but thanks to poor design, the 3 timing chains on 2009-2010 Traverses were prone to wearing out and needing replacement when the valve timing errors popped up. Can't be done with the engine in the vehicle, it has to come out. How does it come out? Not through the hood, but through the underside. That means disconnecting the propeller shaft, steering shaft, brake lines, A/C lines, upper struts, transmission cooler lines, shift linkage, and dropping the whole front frame; engine, transmission, and all. That's on top of the usual things to disconnect from the engine like exhaust, fuel lines, coolant hoses, and wiring harnesses. When it all goes back together, you have to bleed the brake system, do a front end alignment, and evacuate and recharge the A/C. Typically a $3000 or more job, and I've heard some folks have had to have them replaced more than once.





I wonder how many owners decided to trade in the vehicle and get a new one?


I did. Couldn't pass e-check because of the CEL, and I wasn't going to sink $$$$ into it at 170,000 miles since it was only worth about $1500 trade in.
 
Originally Posted by Miller88
It took me 5 hours to replace the lower radiator hose on my F350 last year. The lines going to the cooler have the spring clamp ends inside the crossmember. Can't get to it with any sort of wrench or pliers, even the tool made for spring clips.


I don't know how long it took, but replacing the power steering line (yes, just the line) on a 2006 F250 with the 4.something V8 took me hours. There is so little room to wrench on the fitting that the only way to do it was to lay on the floor, work your way with a wrench to the fitting location, turn it about one sixteenth of a turn, then drop the wrench so it lands on the floor, worm your arm out of the location, pick up the wrench from the floor, and do the same procedure again. Maybe 40 to 60 times before the fitting seated home.

You can't tighten it by removing and re-seating the wrench because it won't come off the fitting without dropping it on to the floor.
 
BMW V8 alternator bracket seal. Oil gasket that the alternator bracket seals off on the side of the block. 10+ hours to change it, about the size of a deck of cards. Also their N62 valve stem seal issues.
Early Porsche Cayennes had metal cooling pipes under the manifold, then went to plastic, which took a dump after 60-70k, and went back to metal towards the end. Update kit is all metal.
Early Audi A8 4.2 have a small plastic cooling tube the size of a chapstick tube that connects the engine block to the oil cooler. Replacing this 8$ tube requires exhaust manifold removal (8+ hours), or a set of allens I made to work.
Early Passat W8s would break their balance shaft belt, but THERE WERE NO EXTERNAL MARKS TO TIME IT!!!! The entire labor time was removing either the engine of what was around it to see the marks on the rear of the shaft!!! Otherwise the belt was a 2 hour job, book time was remove engine and trans assembly to start.
Porsche 996 coolant expansion tanks requires lowering the motor to replace, not really an engine fault but odd design due to packaging.
 
Add another one to the list the Ford 4.0L V6. Just a poor implementation of trying to use a single head on both banks so you have to use a jackshaft from the front chain to spin the rear chain on the back of the engine. And it requires pulling the engine out to service the chains and guides.
 
I would say just about any VWAG engine. Overly complicated and no evidence the engineers understood oil sealing.

Next May I will do the water pump on our 2009 Ford Flex with the 3.5L naturally aspirated. It's at 196,000 km now and no leaks. Doing the work pro-actively.....assuming the WP doesn't disagree with me?
 
Mazda 3.7 with an internal water pump seal that floods the oil pan with coolant when the seal fails.

I've been pleading with my mother to ditch her 65,000 mile CX-9.
 
Ford 4.6l oil pan as found in F/E-150 and Panther platforms - engine must be lifted a few inches for the pan to drop low enough to disconnect the pickup tube - a $600-$800+ repair depending on whether or not they vacuum and recharge A/C system afterwards. Otherwise Ford also decided to bury the ($40) cold/hot blend door actuator for the climate control under the dash, making it another $600+ repair for my Grand Marquis. I choose to live with it occasionally sticking on hot - I just reach behind the glovebox and hit it a few times with a screwdriver and reset the EATC (auto climate control). Otherwise, very reliable engines with the easiest alternators I've ever done.
 
Originally Posted by WylieCoyote
Mazda 3.7 with an internal water pump seal that floods the oil pan with coolant when the seal fails.

I've been pleading with my mother to ditch her 65,000 mile CX-9.





A Ford engine in a Japanese car.
 
The GM 3.1 was a good engine with a terrible LIM design....there weren't enough bolts to properly tighten it....
 
Originally Posted by demarpaint
I had a 95 Caprice Classic with the 4.3L V8, what a load of crap that car was. It had the distributor cap and rotor behind the water pump. I often wondered how the person/people that would design something like that gets hired.
Wow I've never heard of anyone on the internet mentioning the 4.3L GEN II SBC ever before. Was it a fleet or cop car?

Originally Posted by Audios
BMW V8 alternator bracket seal. Oil gasket that the alternator bracket seals off on the side of the block. 10+ hours to change it, about the size of a deck of cards.
I think I've heard you mention this before. 10 hours to change a $5 seal!
 
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