Engine wear?
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used oil analysis are just an approximation of how that particular oil is working in your motor. It is not a 100% reliable indicator of engine wear, though it can sometimes indicate when there's a problem.
As Ryan at Blackstone Labs recently said, a "bad" UOA doesn't mean that motor is having issues. Obsessing over a few PPM of a wear metal in your oil isn't constructive.
A teardown is a better way to determine engine wear.
If this site teaches us anything, it's that the differences between most oils are small (for the typical driver). If you follow the manufacturer's directions, you can expect a fairly long life from the engine.
As Ryan at Blackstone Labs recently said, a "bad" UOA doesn't mean that motor is having issues. Obsessing over a few PPM of a wear metal in your oil isn't constructive.
A teardown is a better way to determine engine wear.
If this site teaches us anything, it's that the differences between most oils are small (for the typical driver). If you follow the manufacturer's directions, you can expect a fairly long life from the engine.
i do not think you accurately can determine engine wear in most cases. the get a clear depiction of engine wear would require running a certain engine for X amount of miles using the same brand and weight of oil, and then tearing it down and comparing wear on every used moving part to its original factory specification. Any other way is is purely speculation. that's my opinion.
Simple, use magnetic drain plug and weigh the debris.
I don't think used oil analysis have any utility in this regard unless your engine is blowing up (and they're no guarantee in some instances!).
Tear-downs and parts measurements would be the gold standard of measuring wear. In lieu of that, monitoring changes in oil consumption over time and monitoring fuel economy (an indirect measure of engine efficiency) seem to provide the best readily-available insight. A compression test would be a more direct measurement that wouldn't be that hard.
Tear-downs and parts measurements would be the gold standard of measuring wear. In lieu of that, monitoring changes in oil consumption over time and monitoring fuel economy (an indirect measure of engine efficiency) seem to provide the best readily-available insight. A compression test would be a more direct measurement that wouldn't be that hard.
Originally Posted By: dparm
used oil analysis are just an approximation of how that particular oil is working in your motor. It is not a 100% reliable indicator of engine wear, though it can sometimes indicate when there's a problem.
As Ryan at Blackstone Labs recently said, a "bad" UOA doesn't mean that motor is having issues. Obsessing over a few PPM of a wear metal in your oil isn't constructive.
A teardown is a better way to determine engine wear.
If this site teaches us anything, it's that the differences between most oils are small (for the typical driver). If you follow the manufacturer's directions, you can expect a fairly long life from the engine.
+1
Even I didn't follow manufacturer's recommend such as change oil filter every oil change at 7-7.5k, I change oil filter once a year at second oil change with dino at 6-7k miles/6mo and synthetic at once a year at around 12-14k miles. The engine is still running great but other parts are falling apart.
used oil analysis are just an approximation of how that particular oil is working in your motor. It is not a 100% reliable indicator of engine wear, though it can sometimes indicate when there's a problem.
As Ryan at Blackstone Labs recently said, a "bad" UOA doesn't mean that motor is having issues. Obsessing over a few PPM of a wear metal in your oil isn't constructive.
A teardown is a better way to determine engine wear.
If this site teaches us anything, it's that the differences between most oils are small (for the typical driver). If you follow the manufacturer's directions, you can expect a fairly long life from the engine.
+1
Even I didn't follow manufacturer's recommend such as change oil filter every oil change at 7-7.5k, I change oil filter once a year at second oil change with dino at 6-7k miles/6mo and synthetic at once a year at around 12-14k miles. The engine is still running great but other parts are falling apart.
as long as your changing your oil and not reving while car still cold dont worry about it until check engine light comes on
every engine will wear over time , as long its got oil to minimize it your doing a fine job.
every engine will wear over time , as long its got oil to minimize it your doing a fine job.
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Originally Posted By: MarkStock
Originally Posted By: tig1
How do you determine engine wear?
You can feel it in your gut.
ROFL
That was hilarious...
Originally Posted By: tig1
How do you determine engine wear?
You can feel it in your gut.
ROFL
That was hilarious...
Propflux01
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Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Simple, use magnetic drain plug and weigh the debris.
Not so simple when copper and aluminum are involved
Simple, use magnetic drain plug and weigh the debris.
Not so simple when copper and aluminum are involved
Originally Posted By: tig1
There is a lot of chatter about oil weight(20 vs everything else) and engine wear. How do you determine engine wear? used oil analysis? Compression test? Engine tear down?
Good question.
used oil analysis are at best a blunt tool for determining wear and are surely not very useful for determining relative wear performance among oils, although most of us like to obsess about wear metals seen in used oil analysis.
I've finally figured out that what matters in a used oil analysis is residual TBN and viscosity in determining the suitable service life of a given oil in a given application and use pattern.
A tear down would let you measure actual wear, but most of us would only tear an engine down because it had problems.
A compression test would also tell us something, but bad compression is not necessarily caused by wear in that there can be sealing problems not related to wear.
Maybe you've used the best wear detection method of all, simply running M1 for 10K OCIs while ignoring all the noise coming from other members and enjoying long engine life.
If an engine runs well, has good power and has seen neither an increase in oil nor fuel consumption, you can assume that it hasn't experienced any serious wear.
It could still be very close to a serious mechanical failure, though.
There is a lot of chatter about oil weight(20 vs everything else) and engine wear. How do you determine engine wear? used oil analysis? Compression test? Engine tear down?
Good question.
used oil analysis are at best a blunt tool for determining wear and are surely not very useful for determining relative wear performance among oils, although most of us like to obsess about wear metals seen in used oil analysis.
I've finally figured out that what matters in a used oil analysis is residual TBN and viscosity in determining the suitable service life of a given oil in a given application and use pattern.
A tear down would let you measure actual wear, but most of us would only tear an engine down because it had problems.
A compression test would also tell us something, but bad compression is not necessarily caused by wear in that there can be sealing problems not related to wear.
Maybe you've used the best wear detection method of all, simply running M1 for 10K OCIs while ignoring all the noise coming from other members and enjoying long engine life.
If an engine runs well, has good power and has seen neither an increase in oil nor fuel consumption, you can assume that it hasn't experienced any serious wear.
It could still be very close to a serious mechanical failure, though.
Quote:
A compression test would be a more direct measurement that wouldn't be that hard
+1 i would probably add a cylinder leak down test to that.
Engine vacuum can be a very good indicator of overall engine health, a cheap vacuum gauge can provide a lot of info if you learn how to read t properly.
Checking bearing wear even with a used oil analysis is going to get a lot more difficult now many manufacturers are moving to aluminium bearings which don't use metals that the tri and bi metal bearings do.
Many new engines use alu heads and block with no bearing inserts for the cams either so detecting the exact area of wear without a tear down is going to be tough.
A compression test would be a more direct measurement that wouldn't be that hard
+1 i would probably add a cylinder leak down test to that.
Engine vacuum can be a very good indicator of overall engine health, a cheap vacuum gauge can provide a lot of info if you learn how to read t properly.
Checking bearing wear even with a used oil analysis is going to get a lot more difficult now many manufacturers are moving to aluminium bearings which don't use metals that the tri and bi metal bearings do.
Many new engines use alu heads and block with no bearing inserts for the cams either so detecting the exact area of wear without a tear down is going to be tough.
Also a compression test can show if there is much wear in an engine.
Uh oh...You starting to hear noises? You've been running 10k 0w20 OCI's on both your vehicles right?
Hi,
tig1 - Engine tear down - measure up. The rest is all noise!
Sophisticated real time measurements can and are done in an appropriate Lab.- this is very expensive and depending on the needs, specific and accurate
Field Tests and tear down/measure up techniques were a part of my life prior to retirement and from the late 1950s. This has been typically reinforced by Lab tests - as technologies have become more sophisticated and accurate
Field testing was/is done on many Continents. Sometimes this may include thousands of vehicles to accellerate the process
tig1 - Engine tear down - measure up. The rest is all noise!
Sophisticated real time measurements can and are done in an appropriate Lab.- this is very expensive and depending on the needs, specific and accurate
Field Tests and tear down/measure up techniques were a part of my life prior to retirement and from the late 1950s. This has been typically reinforced by Lab tests - as technologies have become more sophisticated and accurate
Field testing was/is done on many Continents. Sometimes this may include thousands of vehicles to accellerate the process
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Difficult to do without a teardown .Modern materials and lubricants almost make it trivial - when I began driving a 100,000 mile was considered good for an engine but now mileage of twice and there times that are common .
Basically if it isn't using oil, compression and/or leak down tests along with oil pressure are in spec, then likely there isn't enough wear to be concerned with... Exception could be a worn/failed valve train component(stretched chain, noisy lifter, worn push rod, rocker fulcrum, etc) that would have little bearing on the above...
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$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary
Hi,
tig1 - Engine tear down - measure up. The rest is all noise!
Sophisticated real time measurements can and are done in an appropriate Lab.- this is very expensive and depending on the needs, specific and accurate
Field Tests and tear down/measure up techniques were a part of my life prior to retirement and from the late 1950s. This has been typically reinforced by Lab tests - as technologies have become more sophisticated and accurate
Field testing was/is done on many Continents. Sometimes this may include thousands of vehicles to accellerate the process
This!!! ^^^^^^^
Well stated sir!
Hi,
tig1 - Engine tear down - measure up. The rest is all noise!
Sophisticated real time measurements can and are done in an appropriate Lab.- this is very expensive and depending on the needs, specific and accurate
Field Tests and tear down/measure up techniques were a part of my life prior to retirement and from the late 1950s. This has been typically reinforced by Lab tests - as technologies have become more sophisticated and accurate
Field testing was/is done on many Continents. Sometimes this may include thousands of vehicles to accellerate the process
This!!! ^^^^^^^
Well stated sir!
Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary
Hi,
tig1 - Engine tear down - measure up. The rest is all noise!
Sophisticated real time measurements can and are done in an appropriate Lab.- this is very expensive and depending on the needs, specific and accurate
Field Tests and tear down/measure up techniques were a part of my life prior to retirement and from the late 1950s. This has been typically reinforced by Lab tests - as technologies have become more sophisticated and accurate
Field testing was/is done on many Continents. Sometimes this may include thousands of vehicles to accellerate the process
Thank You for this report. It seems many refer to a few PPM in a used oil analysis as wear metals and perhaps they are, but I don't see these few PPM as some indicator of engine damage. Now 100s of PPM is another thing.
Hi,
tig1 - Engine tear down - measure up. The rest is all noise!
Sophisticated real time measurements can and are done in an appropriate Lab.- this is very expensive and depending on the needs, specific and accurate
Field Tests and tear down/measure up techniques were a part of my life prior to retirement and from the late 1950s. This has been typically reinforced by Lab tests - as technologies have become more sophisticated and accurate
Field testing was/is done on many Continents. Sometimes this may include thousands of vehicles to accellerate the process
Thank You for this report. It seems many refer to a few PPM in a used oil analysis as wear metals and perhaps they are, but I don't see these few PPM as some indicator of engine damage. Now 100s of PPM is another thing.
Hi,
tig1 - I used 150ppm Fe as one lubricant condemnation point. This was used over millions of Kms, 90kkms average OCIs and in "severe use" - and no wear issues!!!
One of these engines at a 1m kms tear down/inspection showed that all parts were suitable for continued use. That engine now has around 2.5m kms on it
People here on BITOG agonise over a few ppm variance - we are talking in PARTS PER MILLION!
tig1 - I used 150ppm Fe as one lubricant condemnation point. This was used over millions of Kms, 90kkms average OCIs and in "severe use" - and no wear issues!!!
One of these engines at a 1m kms tear down/inspection showed that all parts were suitable for continued use. That engine now has around 2.5m kms on it
People here on BITOG agonise over a few ppm variance - we are talking in PARTS PER MILLION!
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