If the filter is mounted at a 45 degree angle it seems like it should always be somewhat full. My guess is that it was plugged up. Last spring when I changed my oil I noticed the same thing after I used a synthetic oil during the winter. I figured the oil cleaned the engine and plugged the filter. Usually I can get oil from the filter several times by tipping it upside down for while and then letting it sit upright for while. I can't understand why anyone would use a Super Tech filter anyway when there are quality filters out there for the same or slightly higher price.
Empty oil filter. What gives!?!
- Thread starter Fluid D
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Hmmm...
Maybe someone knows that the Super tech is a quality filter?
I've got many miles using them on many outfits and cut everyone open with no problems. And the used oil analysis show its a good filter.
They are built well and work well.
Take care, bill
Back when I had a 1990 jeep cherokee with the 4.0L engine the oil filter was mounted at an upside down angle. I used to hate the oil spilling everywhere. So I decided to try and get it to drain with the engine oil out the plug. I left the oil fill cap in place and drained the oil...and what do you know, the oil filter was empty. Why? I think it was because the engine oil draining "sucked" the oil out of the filter as no make up air was rushing in, so it pulled a vaccum on the engine and thus the filter. This was with the orange can of death (was naive then) though.
I do not understand your point FG. Are you saying that the anti drainback valve is a useless accessory? Plus, that second statement is not correct.
Any particular reason why you're changing the oil after 2k miles?
Any particular reason why you're changing the oil after 2k miles?
My wife makes a lot of short trips in the van so I set the change interval at 3 months rather than going by 3000 miles to avoid contaminating the oil. I suppose I would only need to change the oil and not necessarily the filter. However, since I’m wallowing around under there anyway I just change both oil and filter. Cheap insurance I guess.
Thanks,
Dave
My wife makes a lot of short trips in the van so I set the change interval at 3 months rather than going by 3000 miles to avoid contaminating the oil. I suppose I would only need to change the oil and not necessarily the filter. However, since I’m wallowing around under there anyway I just change both oil and filter. Cheap insurance I guess.
Thanks,
Dave
OCI equals 2k miles? Another addict that needs counseling. Maybe Bitog can help? Try an analysis!
posted November 21, 2005 02:57 PM
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"A bad ADBV would adversely affect cold starts by slowing the oil down while it fills the filter, right?"
sure would!
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Reply by Filter Guy; No it wouldn't..
Oil pressure is regulated by the oil pump. Once the engine starts the oil flow is instantaneous. As there is no oil in the filter the by-pass valve open up and allows oil to flow downstream.
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I do not understand your point FG. Are you saying that the anti drainback valve is a useless accessory? Plus, that second statement is not correct.
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How come there's no longer a direct link to quote posts?
Anyway..
Winston..the Anti-drain is there to keep oil in the filter when the filter is positioned from inverted to horizontal.
When you start the engine and the oil reaches the filter....how much oil is exiting the filter at the time the oil enters? Nil to virtually nil....so the by-pass opens up immediately.
The same happens with a filter hanging straight down. The by-pass opens up when the flow enters the filter because of lack of flow exiting the filter.
Hence the pressure "differential" from the oil entering versus exiting the filter.
The amount of time to fill an empty filter at "flow" is less than 2 seconds. Nearer to one second or less if the anti-drain is "bad" and leaks.
As the flow through the media becomes sufficient, then the by-pass shuts off.
A "bad" AD won't effect the filling of the filter with oil. As the oil enters the filter, the oil pushes the anti-drain away from the inlet holes. Flow is instantaneous. If the anti-drain is bad and leaking the oil out, that has nothing to do with the oil entering.
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quote:
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"A bad ADBV would adversely affect cold starts by slowing the oil down while it fills the filter, right?"
sure would!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Reply by Filter Guy; No it wouldn't..
Oil pressure is regulated by the oil pump. Once the engine starts the oil flow is instantaneous. As there is no oil in the filter the by-pass valve open up and allows oil to flow downstream.
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I do not understand your point FG. Are you saying that the anti drainback valve is a useless accessory? Plus, that second statement is not correct.
---------------------------------------------
How come there's no longer a direct link to quote posts?
Anyway..
Winston..the Anti-drain is there to keep oil in the filter when the filter is positioned from inverted to horizontal.
When you start the engine and the oil reaches the filter....how much oil is exiting the filter at the time the oil enters? Nil to virtually nil....so the by-pass opens up immediately.
The same happens with a filter hanging straight down. The by-pass opens up when the flow enters the filter because of lack of flow exiting the filter.
Hence the pressure "differential" from the oil entering versus exiting the filter.
The amount of time to fill an empty filter at "flow" is less than 2 seconds. Nearer to one second or less if the anti-drain is "bad" and leaks.
As the flow through the media becomes sufficient, then the by-pass shuts off.
A "bad" AD won't effect the filling of the filter with oil. As the oil enters the filter, the oil pushes the anti-drain away from the inlet holes. Flow is instantaneous. If the anti-drain is bad and leaking the oil out, that has nothing to do with the oil entering.
Ask yourself this..how fast do you think it takes the filter to fill with oil?
Even if you change the filter, put no oil in it..it takes 1-2 seconds..max.
Sometimes it takes longer... That is still time your engine is running dry with no oil
A "bad" AD won't effect the filling of the filter with oil. As the oil enters the filter, the oil pushes the anti-drain away from the inlet holes. Flow is instantaneous. If the anti-drain is bad and leaking the oil out, that has nothing to do with the oil entering.
I disagree with you on that. A properly functioning adbv will hold the oil in the filter and will also keep oil held and suspended in the oil pick up path. Just imagine putting a straw in a cup of water, holding the top closed with your finger and pulling it out... it magically holds the water in it. As soon as you let go, the water spills out.
Even if you change the filter, put no oil in it..it takes 1-2 seconds..max.
Sometimes it takes longer... That is still time your engine is running dry with no oil
A "bad" AD won't effect the filling of the filter with oil. As the oil enters the filter, the oil pushes the anti-drain away from the inlet holes. Flow is instantaneous. If the anti-drain is bad and leaking the oil out, that has nothing to do with the oil entering.
I disagree with you on that. A properly functioning adbv will hold the oil in the filter and will also keep oil held and suspended in the oil pick up path. Just imagine putting a straw in a cup of water, holding the top closed with your finger and pulling it out... it magically holds the water in it. As soon as you let go, the water spills out.
Sometimes it takes longer... That is still time your engine is running dry with no oil
You do not understand the function of the by-pass valve. Oil exits the filter almost immediately. That is the function of the by-pass valve. That is why every engine has one, either in the filter or in the head where the filter spins on.
The by-pass valves job is to make sure that oil gets to the engine.
There is also a film on your engine parts that prevents a total "dry" situation when you start your engine. Unless you've let your car sit for days or months, the engine won't be "dry".
Or for a test you can do..take the filter off. Start the car. How much oil comes out in the first couple of seconds? Then cut open your oil filter and see how much space is between the outside of the element in relation to the total area of the can. Then look at where the by-pass valve is. If your filter is inverted and the by-pass valve is at the engine end. the by-pass will immediately open and allow oil to lube the engine before the entire filter, element and all, fills with oil. If the by-pass is at the dome end, then the oil takes .1 of a second to get to it and out through the by-pass. Then the filter fills with oil.
The differential pressure which opens the by-pass valve happens as the oil enters looking for the ---least resitance to flow--- and the least resitance is through the by-pass valve as the element is filling with oil.
But hey..believe what you want.
You do not understand the function of the by-pass valve. Oil exits the filter almost immediately. That is the function of the by-pass valve. That is why every engine has one, either in the filter or in the head where the filter spins on.
The by-pass valves job is to make sure that oil gets to the engine.
There is also a film on your engine parts that prevents a total "dry" situation when you start your engine. Unless you've let your car sit for days or months, the engine won't be "dry".
Or for a test you can do..take the filter off. Start the car. How much oil comes out in the first couple of seconds? Then cut open your oil filter and see how much space is between the outside of the element in relation to the total area of the can. Then look at where the by-pass valve is. If your filter is inverted and the by-pass valve is at the engine end. the by-pass will immediately open and allow oil to lube the engine before the entire filter, element and all, fills with oil. If the by-pass is at the dome end, then the oil takes .1 of a second to get to it and out through the by-pass. Then the filter fills with oil.
The differential pressure which opens the by-pass valve happens as the oil enters looking for the ---least resitance to flow--- and the least resitance is through the by-pass valve as the element is filling with oil.
But hey..believe what you want.
Anti-drain and by-pass are two different animals. That people in here use ADBV as one entity are wrong. But they do it for convenience sake.
As I stated , cut a filter open.. see how much "room" there is between the element and the filter can itself. There is little area to actually "fill" before the oil tries to work it's way either through the media or through the by-pass valve.
And yes an 8PSID opening is very easy to open.
Cut the filter element anway from the center tube and see if you can crush it in your hand. It will withstand a minimum of 90PSID. Not 8psid in order to crush.
It would be easier if you were in a lab with a clear hose downstream to see just how long a completely empty filter allows oil to exit with a by-pass valve. Nevermind some filter on an engine which has saturated media.
A question for you..as oil gets to the filter the oil comes at the filter from all angles (think of an open hose end)..how much "pressure and time" does it take to find the inlet holes to enter the filter? Then rethink how much time it takes oil at 60psi ( which is about average at startup) to find the by-pass valve that is registering no oil flow on the clean side..and then open a 8psid by-pass valve. We're talking less than 1 second.
As I stated , cut a filter open.. see how much "room" there is between the element and the filter can itself. There is little area to actually "fill" before the oil tries to work it's way either through the media or through the by-pass valve.
And yes an 8PSID opening is very easy to open.
Cut the filter element anway from the center tube and see if you can crush it in your hand. It will withstand a minimum of 90PSID. Not 8psid in order to crush.
It would be easier if you were in a lab with a clear hose downstream to see just how long a completely empty filter allows oil to exit with a by-pass valve. Nevermind some filter on an engine which has saturated media.
A question for you..as oil gets to the filter the oil comes at the filter from all angles (think of an open hose end)..how much "pressure and time" does it take to find the inlet holes to enter the filter? Then rethink how much time it takes oil at 60psi ( which is about average at startup) to find the by-pass valve that is registering no oil flow on the clean side..and then open a 8psid by-pass valve. We're talking less than 1 second.
Two things FG.
First, you are clearly argueing that the ADBV is not necessary. Strange.
Secondly,
Why would you think it is easier to flow through an 8-12psi bypass valve than into an empty can?
Anyway, I cant even believe we are discussing this. The purpose of the adbv is to prevent oil from draining out the the filter when the engine is off. On some cars, if the adbv fails, the oil will drain out of the filter. When this happens it will take a bit longer for oil to reach your engine oil passages upon startup.
First, you are clearly argueing that the ADBV is not necessary. Strange.
Secondly,
This statement is not true. It is true that the oil is always looking for the path with the least resistance to flow. Lets take your example of a filter with a threaded end bypass, when the filter is empty, the path of least resistance is into the filter can, which will fill it with oil. Then the oil will begin flowing through the media, I do not think the bypass would even open.
Why would you think it is easier to flow through an 8-12psi bypass valve than into an empty can?
Anyway, I cant even believe we are discussing this. The purpose of the adbv is to prevent oil from draining out the the filter when the engine is off. On some cars, if the adbv fails, the oil will drain out of the filter. When this happens it will take a bit longer for oil to reach your engine oil passages upon startup.
The ADBV is simply a check valve for vehicles that have horizontal to completely inverted filters. Keeps the oil and dirt from the inlet side of the filter (small holes) from draining out into the pan. So if your vehicles filter is positioned upright you probably don't need to worry about it working properly unless it gets plugged up.
FilterGuy,
Thanks for the detailed explanation. I got your drift. I think there is a false visualization of having to fill the entire can up to get flow to the bearings. As for the "dry start"
The only way to get a dry start is to tear down the engine, scrub it with solvent and reassemble without assembly lube. There will be residual oil inside the bearings for a very long time. So I again agree with Filterguy.
Thanks for the detailed explanation. I got your drift. I think there is a false visualization of having to fill the entire can up to get flow to the bearings. As for the "dry start"
The only way to get a dry start is to tear down the engine, scrub it with solvent and reassemble without assembly lube. There will be residual oil inside the bearings for a very long time. So I again agree with Filterguy.
I had the same experience with Mobil 1 filters. Every other brand had oil in it when removed, but the Mobil 1 filters had no oil when removed. I'll never buy on again.
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