Elon to announce the Model "C"

Thing is I will never trust claimed 'scientific data' as it rarely ever matches real world/every day use in most scenarios. At the end of the day you do you!

Im totally happy to look at all data you might proffer to back your opinion - but there is none.

There are multiple sources that conflict with your opinion the most profitable car company in the world being one.

One third party that disagrees with you is Engineering Explained. This is a source often quoted and trusted by BITOG as doing pretty solid work.

So - have you got ANYTHING we can look at that backs your opinion?
 
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Thing is I will never trust claimed 'scientific data' as it rarely ever matches real world/every day use in most scenarios. At the end of the day you do you!
Science is man's endless serch for truth in nature.
Scientific data, if collected and analyzed properly, is real world based, by definition. We are all entitled to our own opinion, but not our own facts.
If you don't trust Scientific data, what do you trust?

No offense meant, but denying science is a tough one to understand.
 
Science is man's endless serch for truth in nature.
Scientific data, if collected and analyzed properly, is real world based, by definition. We are all entitled to our own opinion, but not our own facts.
If you don't trust Scientific data, what do you trust?

No offense meant, but denying science is a tough one to understand.
Believing in science simply means you're buying into what 'standards' have been established when who's to claim we should go by set standards?!? Not like mankind has it all figured out, lmao and yes I seriously question it all. Same sort of crap we constantly read about with climate change... who's to say that 100 yrs from now changes we 'should' make now won't negatively affect the environment at that point. We simply don't know and it's pretty much speculation regardless of claims made. Life goes on and I'm doing what works for me NOW.
 
Im totally happy to look at all data you might proffer to back your opinion - but there is none.

There are multiple sources that conflict with your opinion the most profitable car company in the world being one.

One third party that disagrees with you is Engineering Explained. This is a source often quoted and trusted by BITOG as doing pretty solid work.

So - have you got ANYTHING we can look at that backs your opinion?
That is a LMAO moment with mention of the most profitable car company blah blah blah... so many go on and on about Apple and Starbux being so profitable, like they have it all figured out. All they've figured out is how to market their ******** to get people to worship what they offer as they simply don't know any better. Everything they do is barely tolerable at best and I put Musk in their category. Time to be done reading the fangirl crap!
 
That is a LMAO moment with mention of the most profitable car company blah blah blah... so many go on and on about Apple and Starbux being so profitable, like they have it all figured out. All they've figured out is how to market their ******** to get people to worship what they offer as they simply don't know any better. Everything they do is barely tolerable at best and I put Musk in their category. Time to be done reading the fangirl crap!

Still not a thing from you to back your claim. Nothing.
 
That is a LMAO moment with mention of the most profitable car company blah blah blah... so many go on and on about Apple and Starbux being so profitable, like they have it all figured out. All they've figured out is how to market their ******** to get people to worship what they offer as they simply don't know any better. Everything they do is barely tolerable at best and I put Musk in their category. Time to be done reading the fangirl crap!
Dave and Jeff certainly know I dont agree with them on things but we can have discussions. To their surprise maybe I have stayed out of this one but no longer can once you mentioned your blanket appraisal of other companies Ex. Apple and further insulting remarks like "fangirl" "worship" Those words are always used by people who feel other people should do and think as they do.
You sound like someone in which you feel the public should buy and enjoy what you think.

1. There is no denying that one day looking back in history Elon Musk will be the name that made EVs prevalent in our society. Whether or not the company survives as it is or competition lowers margins or it takes over the world. Elon Musk put the modern EV on the table.
There is no doubt in my mind that EVs will be a first or second car in many Americans homes once price come down. I for one, prefer gasoline but I can see (at the right price) an EV as my wife around "town" car. I do think if h2 EVs came on the market at good prices this is a nice solution to refueling quickly. next ...

2. (this is the one that got me) Apple - Out of any technology company Apple has been at the forefront of a company building a future on helping society as a whole. Protecting individual privacy around the world more than any other mainstream tech company or OS. This has helped human rights around the world from repressive governments.
Apple in the medical field, quality products to help the human being. Notice those iPads doctors and NPs carry? Apple Watch, protecting seniors and people of all ages from falls, emergencies, accidents with automatic distress calls and now with the newest watch will communicate distress even with no cell coverage, it will use satellites.
Health applications with unmatched accuracy for a consumer device. Killer, care free OS for desktops computers and phones, with built in privacy. All at prices that are competitive and even less expensive than its peers.
I have a first hand experience with a new Apple Watch 7 given to me last Christmas that, after years of undiagnosed sporadic irregular heart rhythms, PVC's, PAC's, VTACH, and telling my Cardiologist that I took upon myself to see because I am in such great health my primary doctor thought it was nothing, no EKG would show these irregular heart beats as an EKG in a doctors office is only 15 seconds long. No one thought it was a big thing for me, excellent results on nuclear stress tests, echogram, and CT coronary angiogram showing only 20% blockage.

However with a family history that reads like a train wreck I am proactive with my heart and weight. This Apple Watch 7 helped me do that.
My sensations in my chest were becoming more frequent but at night and sometimes REALLY scary, wondering if I feel asleep if I would wake up, even went to an emergency room once or twice thinking I was having heart attack.
Anyway, with the watch, sleeping at night my heart would wake me up, it was as simple as holding the stem on the watch to record an ECG right at the moment it was happening. It then gets sent to my iPhone in PDF form, from there I printed out every time this sensation took place, saw my doctor, actually at this point two specialists, cardiologist and a cardiac electrophysiologist at my cardologists insistence What Is An Electrophysiologist? - Cleveland Clinic with read outs from, I must have 100 pages of printouts. They then hooked me up to their equipment that I wore for 48 hours and it confirmed everything the watch was recording, over 24,000 PVCs while I wore that monitor from the doctors office, my heart in great shape but stopping the PVCs, is key to preventing damage or wearing down the heart.
Both heart specialists mentioned above gave praise to the readouts I provided them from the watch. Right now they prescribed a drug which completely fixed everything, low dose, still in great health, workout twice a week with intense workouts at Orange Theory.
However this drug is dangerous and not really for my condition. SO this Monday I am undergoing an up to 5 hour procedure where wires are going to me snaked through my veins into my heart to find the "short circuit" that takes place sometimes and zap it it with microwaves (burn it) so I can hopefully stop taking a drug for the rest of my life. BTW - up to 50% of the population has some PVCs
Anyway, Because of APPLE (A company I used to hate and avoid until just 5 short years ago) I KNOW I was able to be proactive and preserve my healthy heart before any significant damage.
There is no denying that they build quality products at reasonable cost.

3. Starbucks - I personally will not walk in the place and they are all over here. A decade ago maybe I would once in a while. But for my money, I dont get any satisfaction. With that said I dont think less of someone who finds pleasure with it either. We all pay for things we enjoy in life.
I do sometimes use the Starbucks example when someone is complaining about the high cost of housing and hear they stop at Starbucks everyday but that is in the same context of buying other things one can give up in order to buy a home, including a new car instead of a cheap used car, stuff like that.
But this whole "fanboy" "fangirl" "worship" is all baloney. We all spend on what gives us pleasure. Heck, some people pay for TV to watch sports, I dont look down on them, do you?

OHHHHHH >>> BOY >>> I did it again, another sermon, have a good day! Many of us here can have a conversation and debate without getting personal, debate is how we learn ... ;)

Ps, I am curious what computer and phone operating systems you have in your and your family lives. :unsure:
I used to be a Windows person but I dont know, as time went on, its just seemed and felt like to me personally it was trying to do so many things I didnt need it for and would get bogged down in the stuff. I used to like Windows so much, I even had a Windows phone, just another epic failure on their part. I also had a Windows Music Player with Subscription both my wife and I. Another failure.
Had Many Android phones, security and privacy non existent, many sloppy apps, ads Wild West App Store. But that is just me, I dont look down on someone who prefers Android, its whatever works for the person.
 
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Musk has stated the smaller car would have to meet Tesla's margin standards, but he sez lotsa things. The plan is to take everything they have learned (especially from their mistakes), build it in the right place (Giga Shanghai) with the appropriate materials.

It is only a matter of time.
GM fired a shot across Tesla’s bow with the $35K Equinox EV. Your move, Elon.

Unless Toyota’s U-turn on EVs is admit they ****ed up and introduce a “affordable” BEV to try to bring the same hype(and waitlist) as the 2nd gen Prius did back in 2003-2004. If they did that, finally Tesla has competition - Toyota “quality” and loyalty is still strong. The Leaf and Bolt still can’t compete with the Model 3.
 
Uh, what is the demand for the Equinox? How many have they sold?
0 so far. It’s a “future” vehicle but the sub-$40K BEV market hasn’t been cracked with much success, there’s just too much compromises that are made currently for the two entries here(Bolt and Leaf). Tesla, as much as it’s polarizing and Elon himself is by far and away ahead of the pack.
 
0 so far. It’s a “future” vehicle but the sub-$40K BEV market hasn’t been cracked with much success, there’s just too much compromises that are made currently for the two entries here(Bolt and Leaf). Tesla, as much as it’s polarizing and Elon himself is by far and away ahead of the pack.
I believe (for what it's worth) that until someone builds an EV from the ground up, Tesla will be a far better EV.
Everything else is a compromise.

And with it's futuristic approach, which many hate, it will be stay ahead of the pack. Most of the good people on this forum like the old skool approach, but ask their kids what they want. It ain't buttons.
 
Henry Ford was shouted at for being "dumb" and "insane" for looking past riding a horse like a "normal person" for driving his gasoline powered car that he painstakingly built. Similar to Elon Musk, Ford was one of humankind's most successful people. Have you actually met any Tesla owners and listened to their love for their Teslas?
They are like Saturn owners back in the early 90’s.

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I believe (for what it's worth) that until someone builds an EV from the ground up, Tesla will be a far better EV.
Everything else is a compromise.

And with it's futuristic approach, which many hate, it will be stay ahead of the pack. Most of the good people on this forum like the old skool approach, but ask their kids what they want. It ain't buttons.

This has been my argument for quite a while, most of the so called "competition" to Tesla are vehicles that are kludges of existing ICE designs and parts bin engineering. I get it. Most other automakers simply don't have the cash and manufacturing space (and engineering talent) to start with a clean slate and build EV's from the ground up. They desperately want to be players in the EV market but they are constrained by having to continue to build their existing lineup of ICE vehicles.

So for the sake of discussion, let's say GM introduces a completely new design, ground up from a clean slate EV in January of 2024 that will sell for under $40k. How many people will bet that from a performance and reliability standpoint that it will be anywhere near a comparably priced Tesla ? Sure, they will sell some due to brand loyalty or because they despise Musk and Teslas for emotional reasons. I guess some consumers like to gamble. I wish them luck.

Oh, regarding kids and their desire for their vehicle controls to be on a touchscreen, that may be what they are used to and think they want. Perhaps they need some education and to be shown the advantages/disadvantages of each operating system. They may be clueless but maybe if Tesla actually tries something different rather than caving in, they may find that those kids appreciate buttons and an ergonomic approach that doesn't include having to look at a screen while driving in order to operate the HVAC system for example.
 
Oh, regarding kids and their desire for their vehicle controls to be on a touchscreen, that may be what they are used to and think they want. Perhaps they need some education and to be shown the advantages/disadvantages of each operating system. They may be clueless but maybe if Tesla actually tries something different rather than caving in, they may find that those kids appreciate buttons and an ergonomic approach that doesn't include having to look at a screen while driving in order to operate the HVAC system for example.
"Set the temp to 70." "Cool down passenger."
"My butt is cold." "Passenger's butt is cold."
"Turn fan up."

There is also a voice command to direct air to your face; I will leve it up to readers if they are curious. A little risque...
And there are soooo many others.

We don't need no stinkin' buttons.
 
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They are like Saturn owners back in the early 90’s.

View attachment 124794
OMG that brings back old memories. I remember people stating that the new Saturn was going to be such a hit that it would be a major game changer. People were even buying lots of GM stock in support of futuristic wealth from the investments. What a farce that turned out to be. Saturns were fairly good vehicles however they didn't sell that well and resale was horrible.
 
GM fired a shot across Tesla’s bow with the $35K Equinox EV. Your move, Elon.

Unless Toyota’s U-turn on EVs is admit they ****ed up and introduce a “affordable” BEV to try to bring the same hype(and waitlist) as the 2nd gen Prius did back in 2003-2004. If they did that, finally Tesla has competition - Toyota “quality” and loyalty is still strong. The Leaf and Bolt still can’t compete with the Model 3.

Except it isn't here and wont likely be for a while.

Cant wait to see what it really costs because we know they are going to start with the premium versions first (everyone whined when tesla did this) so the base model wont be around for another year (not that Id buy it anyway)

Cant wait to see what the ADM is while Gm will shrug its shoulders (like they've done since day 1) and claim they cant do anything about gouging)

Cant wait to see how competitively it charges on a 75-80 MPH day long trip.

We know for sure the charging experience will be sub what tesla provides.

Been waiting for a decade now for SOMETHING from the general, the volt was better than people knew...the bolt...eh.......

Ive got a roof producing far in excess of what I use and no where to put the juice.
 
This has been my argument for quite a while, most of the so called "competition" to Tesla are vehicles that are kludges of existing ICE designs and parts bin engineering. I get it. Most other automakers simply don't have the cash and manufacturing space (and engineering talent) to start with a clean slate and build EV's from the ground up. They desperately want to be players in the EV market but they are constrained by having to continue to build their existing lineup of ICE vehicles.

So for the sake of discussion, let's say GM introduces a completely new design, ground up from a clean slate EV in January of 2024 that will sell for under $40k. How many people will bet that from a performance and reliability standpoint that it will be anywhere near a comparably priced Tesla ? Sure, they will sell some due to brand loyalty or because they despise Musk and Teslas for emotional reasons. I guess some consumers like to gamble. I wish them luck.

Oh, regarding kids and their desire for their vehicle controls to be on a touchscreen, that may be what they are used to and think they want. Perhaps they need some education and to be shown the advantages/disadvantages of each operating system. They may be clueless but maybe if Tesla actually tries something different rather than caving in, they may find that those kids appreciate buttons and an ergonomic approach that doesn't include having to look at a screen while driving in order to operate the HVAC system for example.
Ford’s split between Ford Blue(ICE) and Ford(EV) is an effort to dedicate efforts towards dedicated EVs. GM tapped into their Korean arm for the Volt/Bolt though it’s too much of an adaption of a current platform than dedicated to EV. VW, BMW had electrification in mind with MxB(VW) and CLAR(BMW) but again, it’s a modification of a platform built around gas engines. Toyota does have TNGA-e but that has been plagued with issues of its own and BEVs are an afterthought to their hybrid and fuel cell efforts. For a “start up” Tesla has done one hell of job playing with the big boys though the Cybertruck and big rig are so far looking like vaporware.

As for the touch screens here - millennial reporting in. I like the Tesla approach, it’s mostly intuitive but for the most used things(volume, HVAC, hazards), buttons are king. Some OE attempts suck. OE and even aftermarket voice controls aren’t great. Siri Hands Free works only 50% of the time on an OE car(Lexus RX) or aftermarket(Pioneer and Sony decks) if actuated from a steering wheel button but works fine via voice. Apple wanting deeper integration of CarPlay into cars is a start. Android is starting to be used by the OEMs, Pioneer was using a neutered version of Android Jelly Bean/KitKat/Marshmallow, while Honda’s using full Android but locked down side loading(Honda has said to their dealers it’s OK to void warranty if they find non-Honda provided apps on a car).
 
Cant wait to see what the ADM is while Gm will shrug its shoulders (like they've done since day 1) and claim they cant do anything about gouging)


We know for sure the charging experience will be sub what tesla provides.
Eventually all dealers will go the way of the dodo - NADA and the states where dealership chains have their headquarters in like North Carolina(Hendrick, Sonic), Florida(AutoNation, the Margate family who runs JM Lexus and Southeastern Toyota Distributors) as well as Michigan are lobbying/passing laws to keep Tesla as well as GM/Ford/FCA US from doing direct to consumer sales a la Apple Store/Tesla Store. IMO, I think Nissan, Toyota, Honda and Hyundai/Kia will continue with dealer sales, especially Nissan and HyunKia - people with shot credit are the most profitable since subprime credit also gives dealers a generous spiff, and the Toyota/Honda tax ain’t going away anytime soon. The high-end brands and Detroit 3 want to go DTC ASAP.

Tesla has the consumer experience down to an almost Apple-like science. Supercharging isn’t everywhere but where it is, Tesla does it at high-end open-air shopping centers or places where food is abundant to take the sting/hangry out of waiting but not the truck stop experience.
 
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Science is man's endless serch for truth in nature.
Scientific data, if collected and analyzed properly, is real world based, by definition. We are all entitled to our own opinion, but not our own facts.
If you don't trust Scientific data, what do you trust?

No offense meant, but denying science is a tough one to understand.

Not at difficult to understand. Since the days of Aristotle what people have called "science" findings have been ginned up, data manipulated and incorrect findings declared as facts. As we can plainly see in our times a lot of so called scientific evidence is nothing more than ginned up mumbo jumbo all in the aid of an agenda. Denying it is not wrong when the evidence has had no critical deep dive into it especcially when there is evidence that a lot of the data was manipulated. JM2C
 
Have you actually met any Tesla owners and listened to their love for their Teslas?
Pfft, it's just another fad.
Back in the 90's, folks were going crazy for GM's "Saturn".
IIRC, their slogan was "a different kind of car, a different kind of company".
GM would also regularly host special special events for Saturn owners.
In time, it'll pass and folks will be back to their dino juice burning antiques.
😏
 
Not at difficult to understand. Since the days of Aristotle what people have called "science" findings have been ginned up, data manipulated and incorrect findings declared as facts. As we can plainly see in our times a lot of so called scientific evidence is nothing more than ginned up mumbo jumbo all in the aid of an agenda. Denying it is not wrong when the evidence has had no critical deep dive into it especcially when there is evidence that a lot of the data was manipulated. JM2C
Agreed, there will always be people twisting Science for their own means. But that is on those who choose to do so. I have dealt with a lot of data in my career. The old saying is true; there are lies, **** lies and then there are statistics. While true, if you are willing to perform impartial, open minded analytics, you will get reputable results. And in business you just might get a competitive advantage.

@Trav you are correct, but it isn't the fault of the Science.
 
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