Electronic Shifting: Pros & Cons

[MRC01]

... Point is now moot going forward as the new Ultegra is di2 only.
... di2 and mechanical feel about the same assuming you’ve got optislick cables, sp-41 housing, clean lubricated derailleurs. The difference is that unlike mechanical it just doesn’t degrade, my wife never washes her di2 and even after it being packed with dirt, cow ****, and residual hard water from rain it still shifts like a brand new mechanical group out of the box despite looking like Garey Busey’s mugshot at times.

As someone who prefers mechanical shifting I surmised we would soon reach the point where mechanical shifting would not be available in a high quality group set; it was "now or never" to get a new bike. Is this really the last year of mechanical shifting Ultegra? Wow. Looks I really did order my new bike just in time!

Regarding how it performs under abuse, my experience differs. As mentioned above, I've put mechanical shifting through serious abuse and hard conditions, far more than most people do. Not only on road bikes which are easy service, but also mountain bikes and our tandem, have held up just fine, no degradation, no problems over many years, thousands of miles, lots of dirt, mud, etc.

 

[Crash Bandicoot]

As someone who prefers mechanical shifting I surmised we would soon reach the point where mechanical shifting would not be available in a high quality group set; it was "now or never" to get a new bike. Is this really the last year of mechanical shifting Ultegra? Wow. Looks I really did order my new bike just in time!

Regarding how it performs under abuse, my experience differs. As mentioned above, I've put mechanical shifting through serious abuse and hard conditions, far more than most people do. Not only on road bikes which are easy service, but also mountain bikes and our tandem, have held up just fine, no degradation, no problems over many years, thousands of miles, lots of dirt, mud, etc.

My gravel bike has the r6800 groupset that I used on the road before getting R8000 easily has 35,000+ miles on it and largely original sans the 1x chain ring. Fantastic piece of engineering, put new cables and housing on and it literally feels like it did back when I got it out of the box despite all the abuse.

R8000 is a great groupset, an actual serious iterative improvement aimed at road riding/racing. To be honest I’m really disappointed with the new R8100 group, in my opinion it seems like paper/marketing only improvements and a lot of weird choices to satisfy slower/newer riders who are already very well catered for in Shimano’s lineup and will be the first to leave after this new cycling boom passes and we get back to normal.

IMHO Getting rid of the 53/39 on a racing oriented groupset was a horrible mistake, 16 tooth drop down from is awful for racing or fast riding and honestly a 39x30 with the spacing of an 11-28 11 speed cassette below your bail out would be perfect for everything I’ve come across in the US. Even for crazy euro climbs I don’t think you’d be begging for a 36 if you’re on form. Anyways just shouting at the sky. Give me a standard crank, greaseable zerks on my cars suspension and a dining room in my house’s floor plan and I’m a happy man, getting old sucks .

 

[MRC01]

... IMHO Getting rid of the 53/39 on a racing oriented groupset was a horrible mistake, 16 tooth drop down from is awful for racing or fast riding ... getting old sucks .

My current road bike has a 52/39 up front. It's 20+ years old with 15,000+ miles (despite having 4 other bikes I ride). Still runs like new, over the years I've only had to replace tires, brake pads, chains & rear cogs. Serviced all bearings but have not had to replace any. One reason I'm getting a new bike is to get a lower 1st gear. The current low is 39x25, after I wore out & replaced the rear cassette it is now 39x28 which is a little better but still means I have to stand up on 15+ % grades. As you know, it can't go smaller than 39 up front due to the BCD. The new one has (or will have) a low of 34x34, so I'm going from 1.4:1 to 1.0:1, a much lower low, with about the same high. Good for my aging legs. The cost for this wider range is the dreaded 16 tooth drop (34-50 in front) but I don't race anymore so I'm not concerned. I always wanted a bigger drop up front in order to have a wider overall range.

 

[Jack Watts]

My gravel bike has the r6800 groupset that I used on the road before getting R8000 easily has 35,000+ miles on it and largely original sans the 1x chain ring. Fantastic piece of engineering, put new cables and housing on and it literally feels like it did back when I got it out of the box despite all the abuse.

R8000 is a great groupset, an actual serious iterative improvement aimed at road riding/racing. To be honest I’m really disappointed with the new R8100 group, in my opinion it seems like paper/marketing only improvements and a lot of weird choices to satisfy slower/newer riders who are already very well catered for in Shimano’s lineup and will be the first to leave after this new cycling boom passes and we get back to normal.

IMHO Getting rid of the 53/39 on a racing oriented groupset was a horrible mistake, 16 tooth drop down from is awful for racing or fast riding and honestly a 39x30 with the spacing of an 11-28 11 speed cassette below your bail out would be perfect for everything I’ve come across in the US. Even for crazy euro climbs I don’t think you’d be begging for a 36 if you’re on form. Anyways just shouting at the sky. Give me a standard crank, greaseable zerks on my cars suspension and a dining room in my house’s floor plan and I’m a happy man, getting old sucks .

I think it depends on where you're racing, but honestly I don't know too many people still running 53/39. 52/36 has been the standard for a while. That said, I may feel differently with mechanical shifting. This is another benefit to di2: the FD will never misfire, and you can shift the front and rear at the same time. It just becomes second nature to shift down one in the back while you shift the FD.

As far as gearing, I absolutely use a 36/34 on occasion. I don't use it often, but it's nice to have.

Regarding the future of di2 and mechanical, I think it's clear the direction Shimano is going: mechanical will be a price point group only. The new Dura Ace and Ultegra and di2-only, and they have no current plans to do a 12 speed mechanical group. They'll grandfather mechanical 11 speed for a year or two, but 105 will likely be the highest end mechanical group set.

 

[zzyzzx]

The electronic shifting is compliments of the marketing department, not the engineering department.

 

[MRC01]

... This is another benefit to di2: the FD will never misfire, and you can shift the front and rear at the same time. It just becomes second nature to shift down one in the back while you shift the FD.
As far as gearing, I absolutely use a 36/34 on occasion. I don't use it often, but it's nice to have.
...

My mechanical FD never misfires, and I frequently shift front & rear at the same time. Road bike (double front) and tandem (triple front).

I agree, 36-34 is nice to have. Even a 34-34 giving 1:1 for folks who climb 20+% grades. The older I get, the more I appreciate it.

 

[Crash Bandicoot]

The electronic shifting is compliments of the marketing department, not the engineering department.

Have you ridden or owned a bike with electronic shifting?

 

[Jack Watts]

The electronic shifting is compliments of the marketing department, not the engineering department.

knowing several of the guys who worked on the project, I can tell you that it's 100% courtesy of the engineering department... They've been working on this stuff since the late 90's.

It was a direct response to a competitor, Mavic's Zap--which offered much better performance than anything Shimano offered. When it worked. Which was "not often"...

Again, there is pretty much nothing that it doesn't do better. The only downside is cost. And honestly, I think that's driven in large part by the massive R&D costs they've incurred. I would be shocked if the actual production cost on the higher end mechanical STI shifters wasn't actually higher. When you pull the shifters apart, di2 is in many ways a much more simple design.

One last thing I'll mention: ergonomics. They're much better with di2, particularly when you start stuffing a hydraulic reservoir in the brake hood! I have a bike in Taiwan that I ride when I'm there,and it's Ultegra mechanical. My biggest complaint about it is the size/feel of the hoods.

Again, none of this is earth-shattering. I've won races on mechanical when most guys were on Di2. It's not going to make you faster. But facts are, most people who use is strongly prefer it, for the reasons I've mentioned.

 

[MRC01]

... Again, there is pretty much nothing that it doesn't do better. The only downside is cost. ... Again, none of this is earth-shattering. I've won races on mechanical when most guys were on Di2. It's not going to make you faster. But facts are, most people who use is strongly prefer it, for the reasons I've mentioned.

In my view, cost is only 1 of several downsides. With electronic, you have a more complex system on the bike. It involves charging batteries, updating firmware, and the long-term durability and reliability is not as well understood as it is for mechanical. And you are at the whims of the companies when it comes to long-term support. 5 or 10 years down the road, if you need to replace a derailleur, how do you know SRAM or Shimano won't say, "Sorry dude, we don't support that old software anymore. You need to upgrade everything else." That's not conspiracy theory, it's common sense, as companies do this already with cell phones and other products. OTOH, I've got bikes 20+ years old with tens of thousands of miles on them that still run like new with the original mechanical derailleurs and shifting system. I've replaced chains & sprockets but never had to replace a derailleur. And in the unlikely event that I did, it would cost a small fraction of the price and guaranteed to be compatible with everything else.

On the flip side, electronic has no real benefit, at least for me personally. As you stated, it doesn't make the bike faster or more efficient. It's not lighter. The ergonomics and functionality of mechanical shifting are just fine for me, they work perfectly, require minimal maintenance, and I don't feel they need improving. The long-term reliability and durability of mechanical is well proven, lasts essentially forever. It's simpler and more user-serviceable.

 

[MRC01]

... Give me a standard crank, greaseable zerks on my cars suspension and a dining room in my house’s floor plan and I’m a happy man, getting old sucks .

Yeah! And give me cone & cup bearings which are user-serviceable, adjustable, spin more freely and last forever when properly maintained.

 

[Crash Bandicoot]

In my view, cost is only 1 of several downsides. With electronic, you have a more complex system on the bike. It involves charging batteries, updating firmware, and the long-term durability and reliability is not as well understood as it is for mechanical. And you are at the whims of the companies when it comes to long-term support. 5 or 10 years down the road, if you need to replace a derailleur, how do you know SRAM or Shimano won't say, "Sorry dude, we don't support that old software anymore. You need to upgrade everything else." That's not conspiracy theory, it's common sense, as companies do this already with cell phones and other products. OTOH, I've got bikes 20+ years old with tens of thousands of miles on them that still run like new with the original mechanical derailleurs and shifting system. I've replaced chains & sprockets but never had to replace a derailleur. And in the unlikely event that I did, it would cost a small fraction of the price and guaranteed to be compatible with everything else.

On the flip side, electronic has no real benefit, at least for me personally. As you stated, it doesn't make the bike faster or more efficient. It's not lighter. The ergonomics and functionality of mechanical shifting are just fine for me, they work perfectly, require minimal maintenance, and I don't feel they need improving. The long-term reliability and durability of mechanical is well proven, lasts essentially forever. It's simpler and more user-serviceable.

Couple of things as a guy who has both Di2 and mechanical because I think people love repeating a lot of common fallacies of Di2 who haven’t owned or used it.

1.) Di2 is actually more reliable, I’ve never had my di2 bike (tt bike has 6870 Di2 ) run out of battery on a ride, once you get red leds you still have ~400-600 miles of riding left. In comparison I have had several optislick cables break off inside my shifter over the last 3 years and 30,000 miles on rides giving me limited gearing options with no recourse, I change these cables every 2000 miles (5 times a year) at this point to minimize this issue which is about as frequently as you’d need to charge a Di2 system.

I mean think about it, you really a mechanical system with ratchets, pulleys, pawls, and springs is going to be less complicated than Di2? At best they’re equally complex.

2.). I know plenty of people with original Di2 systems from 2008 that still work and they shift exactly as good as they did when they left the factory, that is the whole point of Di2. These things are incredibly well engineered, the batteries have tons of capacity and experience fairly low charge cycles. Shimano seems to be committed to going back two generations on e-tube support. Like many powermeters yes you lose firmware updates but on a product that old who cares? By that time any bugs would be worked out already and you’d gain nothing from a firmware update.

Regardless you won’t find anything from Shimano, Sram, or Campagnolo that supports old 10 speed mechanical systems either. You want to buy some new Tiagra to replace your old Dura Ace ten speed shifter? Nope, you need to buy all new Tiagra derailleurs because the pull ratios are different.

Also Di2 does shift faster, that’s just a fact, whether that benefits you is irrelevant but it performs its function superior to mechanical systems in seemingly every measurable aspect. Not bashing mechanical systems. They’re good for racing since they’re cheap to replace after a crash but on the technical side you’re comparing a quartz watch to a mechanical watch.

 

[twouvakind]

Battery this battery that, just carry an 18650 based charger if you are worried about the rarity of dead Di2 or etap cells. Works great on your other power consuming devices.

 

[MRC01]

1.) ... I mean think about it, you really a mechanical system with ratchets, pulleys, pawls, and springs is going to be less complicated than Di2? At best they’re equally complex.

2.). ... Shimano seems to be committed to going back two generations on e-tube support. Like many powermeters yes you lose firmware updates but on a product that old who cares? By that time any bugs would be worked out already and you’d gain nothing from a firmware update.

Regardless you won’t find anything from Shimano, Sram, or Campagnolo that supports old 10 speed mechanical systems either. You want to buy some new Tiagra to replace your old Dura Ace ten speed shifter? Nope, you need to buy all new Tiagra derailleurs because the pull ratios are different.

Also Di2 does shift faster, that’s just a fact, whether that benefits you is irrelevant but it performs its function superior to mechanical systems in seemingly every measurable aspect. Not bashing mechanical systems. They’re good for racing since they’re cheap to replace after a crash but on the technical side you’re comparing a quartz watch to a mechanical watch.

1. As a software engineer, I know you are greatly underestimating the complexity of the Di2 system. It has quite a bit of software/firmware, and the derailleurs have electric motors. That's one of the reasons they're so much more expensive. In many applications, gears, cables & pulleys have better long-term durability than electronics and motors. I've seen many cars whose electric windows stopped working after a few years, but I've never seen one that had a mechanical window stop working. Speaking of cars, the electronics are often the least reliable part of the car. After 10-15 years, the stereo stops working, the windows don't roll down anymore, some of the dash lights are stuck off, or stuck on, but the engine, transmission and other mechanical systems run just fine.

2. I get your point, but it actually illustrates an advantage for mechanical. Earlier this year the right/rear mechanical shifter (year 2000 Ultegra) on my tandem started getting intermittent downshifts. I was able to disassemble it, discover the problem, an internal lever sticking because it was gunked with 20 years of murf, cleaned it, reassembled and it's like new. That user-serviceability doesn't apply to electronic, which has different kinds of failure modes that one cannot fix.

I like your analogy to watches. Mechanical watches have some advantages. No batteries ever to replace, and when properly tuned their accuracy can be better than quartz. A quartz is more consistent, usually exactly 0.5 second fast every day. Where a good mechanical may vary up or down 5 seconds per day, seems 10x worse. In the short term, quartz is clearly better. But in the long term, after 4 months the quartz has drifted 1 minute ahead yet the mechanical can still be +/- 5 seconds. Also the mechanical is more easily user-serviceable if you have the tools. And it never needs batteries and can last a lifetime. Quartz is "different", but not necessarily "better".

 

[twouvakind]

Battery this battery that, just carry an 18650 based charger if you are worried about the rarity of dead Di2 or etap cells. Works great on your other power consuming devices.

Cue the weight weenie's

 

[Crash Bandicoot]

1. As a software engineer, I know you are greatly underestimating the complexity of the Di2 system. It has quite a bit of software/firmware, and the derailleurs have electric motors. That's one of the reasons they're so much more expensive. In many applications, gears, cables & pulleys have better long-term durability than electronics and motors. I've seen many cars whose electric windows stopped working after a few years, but I've never seen one that had a mechanical window stop working. Speaking of cars, the electronics are often the least reliable part of the car. After 10-15 years, the stereo stops working, the windows don't roll down anymore, some of the dash lights are stuck off, or stuck on, but the engine, transmission and other mechanical systems run just fine.

2. I get your point, but it actually illustrates an advantage for mechanical. Earlier this year the right/rear mechanical shifter (year 2000 Ultegra) on my tandem started getting intermittent downshifts. I was able to disassemble it, discover the problem, an internal lever sticking because it was gunked with 20 years of murf, cleaned it, reassembled and it's like new. That user-serviceability doesn't apply to electronic, which has different kinds of failure modes that one cannot fix.

I like your analogy to watches. Mechanical watches have some advantages. No batteries ever to replace, and when properly tuned their accuracy can be better than quartz. A quartz is more consistent, usually exactly 0.5 second fast every day. Where a good mechanical may vary up or down 5 seconds per day, seems 10x worse. In the short term, quartz is clearly better. But in the long term, after 4 months the quartz has drifted 1 minute ahead yet the mechanical can still be +/- 5 seconds. Also the mechanical is more easily user-serviceable if you have the tools. And it never needs batteries and can last a lifetime. Quartz is "different", but not necessarily "better".

Not trying to be difficult but why is the firmware thing an issue? The Di2 system I have was made in late 2013 so it’s 8 years old, I bought most of it used in 2016 with about 20k miles on it from a friend of mine with the exception being battery and tt shifters/brake levers which were bought used on eBay with unknown mileage and a new junction box.

The last firmware update I did Obama was president. I’ve put about 15k miles on it with zero shift issues whatsoever, in fact I put about 1900 miles on it in March/April this year after not touching that bike since early summer of 2020 again zero shifting issues whatsoever. In comparison on 30k miles with R8000 I’ve severed 3 cables inside the right shifter (not a huge issue but not more reliable) I don’t know what you’re talking about with rebuilding derailleurs to be honest. Shimano gets a lot of hate for not selling repair parts outside of jockey wheel cages. I can disassemble and clean a Di2 derailleur as well so maybe that’s what you’re talking. As I said there is an old retiree here in N Scottsdale that rides a Serotta very slowly about 200 miles a week or more on a Dura Ace 7900 groupset can’t fathom when his last firmware update was. The only people I’ve ever met who have broken Di2 stuff either did it in a crash, one guy had some Chinese oversized pully cage that wallered out the little bolt threads, and one guy broke a Dura Ace Di2 front derailleur because he wanted to run a 53/34 which is a stupid idea.

 

[MRC01]

Not trying to be difficult but why is the firmware thing an issue? The Di2 system I have was made in late 2013 so it’s 8 years old, I bought most of it used in 2016 with about 20k miles on it from a friend of mine with the exception being battery and tt shifters/brake levers which were bought used on eBay with unknown mileage and a new junction box.
...

I didn't say it was an issue, I said the code adds to the complexity, which many people overlook because they can't see it. Ditto with the electric motors in the derailleurs. My point is that electronic is more complex than mechanical, and in most things, electronics are less reliable than mechanicals. That said, I'm glad you've seen good reliability with electronic. My electronic/mechanical reliability expectations are based on years of owning and working on both kinds of systems. Your "data point" doesn't change my expectations, but it is useful info and I appreciate you sharing it.

... In comparison on 30k miles with R8000 I’ve severed 3 cables inside the right shifter (not a huge issue but not more reliable) I don’t know what you’re talking about with rebuilding derailleurs to be honest. ...

I wonder what is wrong with R8000 mechanical Ultegra, severing 3 cables in the shifter. I've got 20+ years and thousands of miles on vintage 105 and Ultegra. Never broke a cable. Neither on my mechanical shifting MTB, which has seen seriously rough duty under adverse conditions. With that vintage Ultegra I rebuilt the shifter, not the derailleur. But both being mechanical, I could rebuild either if necessary. Can't say the same for electronic; some of its failure modes include things like electric motors and chips that require outright replacement.

 

[MRC01]

What's funny is this discussion sounds like people debating automatic vs. manual transmissions in cars. A never-ending debate! Though manuals are going the way of the dinosaurs as electrics become more popular.

The detailed replies in this thread have satisfied my original question and curiousity. It's not going to convince me to get electronic shifting, in fact it strengthened my conviction that it's just not for me (like automatic transmissions in cars). But I did learn a few things and enjoyed hearing what people have to say about it.

 

[Jack Watts]

In my view, cost is only 1 of several downsides. With electronic, you have a more complex system on the bike. It involves charging batteries, updating firmware, and the long-term durability and reliability is not as well understood as it is for mechanical. And you are at the whims of the companies when it comes to long-term support. 5 or 10 years down the road, if you need to replace a derailleur, how do you know SRAM or Shimano won't say, "Sorry dude, we don't support that old software anymore. You need to upgrade everything else." That's not conspiracy theory, it's common sense, as companies do this already with cell phones and other products. OTOH, I've got bikes 20+ years old with tens of thousands of miles on them that still run like new with the original mechanical derailleurs and shifting system. I've replaced chains & sprockets but never had to replace a derailleur. And in the unlikely event that I did, it would cost a small fraction of the price and guaranteed to be compatible with everything else.

On the flip side, electronic has no real benefit, at least for me personally. As you stated, it doesn't make the bike faster or more efficient. It's not lighter. The ergonomics and functionality of mechanical shifting are just fine for me, they work perfectly, require minimal maintenance, and I don't feel they need improving. The long-term reliability and durability of mechanical is well proven, lasts essentially forever. It's simpler and more user-serviceable.

Also don't want to be argumentative, but here's my real world experience here:

• charging: unless you live somewhere without electricity, this is a non-issue. You plug it in 2-3 times a year (Shimano) depending on how much you ride. Meanwhile you never need to make an adjustment. I've spend most of my adult life in the bike industry, in and around bikes, and I've never seen a mechanical system that never needs adjusting? You will absolutely spend less time maintaining di2 than mechanical, so the 10 seconds I spend once a quarter plugging in the system to charge is a non-issue
• firmware: unless there's a new update in functionality, i.e. sequential shifting, there's no need to update firmware. I haven't plugged my system into a computer since the initial set-up. Meanwhile I have better functionality (can shift from the top of the hoods or the buttons on the lever)
• durability: it's more durable that mechanical STI, period. I have almost 20K miles on R8000 series Ultegra, and it works exactly as it did when it was new. The most I've ever gotten out of a mechanical shifter is about 15K (Dura Ace). More typical is about 7-10 K miles (a wet climate certainly makes this worse). But the performance deteriorates over time. The internals pawls and springs start wearing, and shifting becomes slower and less precise over time. And the internals are not serviceable, you have to replace the entire blade. If you're comparing it to a barcon, then yet--long term reliability is better, but with much less functionality. I have teammates with far more miles on di2 (one guy has 40K miles on original 10 speed di2). You simply aren't getting that out of any STI lever. As far as simplicity, STI is far from simple. I've seen the machines that produce the levers, and it's like brain surgery... Di2 is relatively simple (yes, there's a lot of engineering that went into the development of the circuitry).
• long term compatibility: you're right here, at a certain point they will stop supporting older stuff. And I realize this is Bitog, where everyone's car has 600K miles on it and folks are still repairing their original Walkman... For me, I typically sell my bike stuff while it still has value and then upgrade, so it's not an issue for me (no, I'm not paying retail--though just to be clear I do not work for Shimano and my love of di2 has no professional influence!). That said, that's what the secondary market is for. You can still get a Superbe Pro derailleur if you need one, and Suntour hasn't made components for decades...

Bottom line though, use what you want. For now at least, you have both options. I'm never going back to mechanical, that's for sure.

 

[IndyIan]

My mechanical FD never misfires, and I frequently shift front & rear at the same time. Road bike (double front) and tandem (triple front).

I agree, 36-34 is nice to have. Even a 34-34 giving 1:1 for folks who climb 20+% grades. The older I get, the more I appreciate it.

How steep can you climb seated with a 1:1 gear ratio? 20% sustained is getting me into some low low gears, like 22f 28R(my old 3x7 mtb is my gravel bike) to spin up that seated but I'm not a young road racer either. Standing up I can go 1:1 up some pretty steep stuff but prefer not to for minutes at a time.

 

[MRC01]

My short local ride has a 20% section that is short and paved; it rises 300 feet in 1500 feet (1/4 to 1/3 mile). On my single (non-tandem) road bike, the lowest gear is 39-28 which is undoable (for me) seated; I'm standing on the pedals in 2nd gear (39-24). On my MTB, I climb it seated in a 1:1 ratio 32-32, though it's more comfortable 1 gear down in 32-36. The road bike is lighter and has slightly longer cranks (175 vs. 172.5) so I expect the 34-34 that my new bike will have, should be sufficient for climbing it seated.

On the new bike I might even go 36-52 up front instead of 34-50, since 36-34 will still be much lower than what I have now, and gives a slightly taller top gear.

PS: back in the 80s, my road racing bike low gear was 42-21, or 2:1 ratio. Somehow I still made it up the hills. My legs aren't what they used to be 30+ years ago.