Elder Care Lawyer Pre Retirement Info Sought

[doitmyself]

A friend recommended that part of my pre retirement planning include an elder care lawyer. He said it is necessary to avoid possible problems if you go into long term care and helps protect your assets.

Can anyone enlighten me a bit about this please? Thank you.

 

[jadmt]

yes a good idea to set up a Trust. we literally just met with a elder care lawyer. We set our trust up so that we can change it at anytime but our assets our protected if one of us or both were to need long term care. when you actually start adding up your assets you will most likely be shocked. We are pretty modest but our assets are ~2,000,000 never really thought it would be so much. cost about $4200 to have everything put in the trust. the nice thing is at any time we can pull whatever we want out of the trust..it is a seamless process.

 

[CKN]

yes a good idea to set up a Trust. we literally just met with a elder care lawyer. We set our trust up so that we can change it at anytime but our assets our protected if one of us or both were to need long term care. when you actually start adding up your assets you will most likely be shocked. We are pretty modest but our assets are ~2,000,000 never really thought it would be so much. cost about $4200 to have everything put in the trust. the nice thing is at any time we can pull whatever we want out of the trust..it is a seamless process.

You need to pay the bill for long term care-one way or the other. Did you Lawyer tell you that? If you don't pay the bill (assuming no long-term insurance) they will send you to a facility paid by what ever you get from the government. These are generally not great places.

 

[jadmt]

You need to pay the bill for long term care-one way or the other. Did you Lawyer tell you that? If you don't pay the bill (assuming no long-term insurance) they will send you to a facility paid by what ever you get from the government. These are generally not great places.

Yes of course we have long term care insurance as well.

 

[Lubener]

Yes of course we have long term care insurance as well.

That was a good move. A consultation with an attorney specializing in elder law would be a good idea. From my experience, attorneys like to create a trust. Not everyone needs one. There are alternatives. It's a big money maker for them to put together and an expense to your heirs after you are gone.

 

[User_19876]

The “look-back” period is generally five years for Medicaid benefits. If you decide on a trust, or giving gifts to children, selling them your house for $1, etc., to protect assets, just remember they usually go back five years to look for property you may have had. In some states it may be shorter, but not many.

 

[Boomer]

Also includes as I am told gifts to charities and gifts to children/grandchildren. Sums under $5-7000 annually are ignored but if you cross that, the overage is a problem.

 

[demarpaint]

Looking into this for a while now. I attended a couple of seminars and got conflicting info regarding Irrevocable Trusts. Five year look back once cleared, money can be taken out via a backdoor, however that can become problematic. Putting a house into a Trust then selling it and moving to something less costly leaves remaining money in the Trust. Then if we move to another state that can be a problem with a trust.

 

[Lubener]

The “look-back” period is generally five years for Medicaid benefits. If you decide on a trust, or giving gifts to children, selling them your house for $1, etc., to protect assets, just remember they usually go back five years to look for property you may have had. In some states it may be shorter, but not man

Having your home in your children's name puts your house in danger should they become bankrupt. The only trust that will protect you is a irrevocable trust which basically means you have no control over your assets. To beat the system, you basically have to live off the"grid". That means all your assets are in physical gold, silver or other precious metals, all hidden under your mattress after five years .

Annual monetary gifts larger than $19k per person or $38k per couple have to be declared on a gift tax return to go against your lifetime exemption of $15M. There is always a paper trail.

 

[User_19876]

Having your home in your children's name puts your house in danger should they become bankrupt. The only trust that will protect you is an irrevocable trust which basically means you have no control over your assets. You basically have to live off the"grid". That means all your assets are in physical gold, silver or other precious metals, all hidden under your mattress.

And if you aren’t careful with that, you may wind up in federal court hoping for a downward departure in your sentence after being convicted of attempting to hide assets.

Looking into this for a while now. I attended a couple of seminars and got conflicting info regarding Irrevocable Trusts. Five year look back once cleared, money can be taken out via a backdoor, however that can become problematic. Putting a house into a Trust then selling it and moving to something less costly leaves remaining money in the Trust. Then if we move to another state that can be a problem with a trust.

Compounding all of this are varying state laws and differing schedules, formulas, etc., for figuring benefits, premiums, maximums, minimums, ad nauseam.

I’ll say this: a good lawyer and good siblings are making things much easier for me.

 

[demarpaint]

Compounding all of this are varying state laws and differing schedules, formulas, etc., for figuring benefits, premiums, maximums, minimums, ad nauseam.

I’ll say this: a good lawyer and good siblings are making things much easier for me.

Absolutely! There are a lot of moving parts and if done wrong it can become a very costly nightmare. A good friend set his irrevocable trust up and put two houses in it. The other day we were talking about trusts and he said he regrets putting his vacation home in the trust. He's 75 and is finding the three hour ride to the house and all the work that is required in maintaining it is not easy anymore. He said if he sells it the proceeds remain in the trust, he's not happy with that idea. He put no other assets in it because he doesn't want to give up control of his money.

Good lawyers are hard to find, just like anything else. They can be unethical and give bad advice too, Law Degree and The Bar Association, etc. doesn't guarantee much. There's a lot of homework required to set this up properly, and the rules can vary between states so planning a move can complicate things further.

 

[jadmt]

That was a good move. A consultation with an attorney specializing in elder law would be a good idea. From my experience, attorneys like to create a trust. Not everyone needs one. There are alternatives. It's a big money maker for them to put together and an expense to your heirs after you are gone.

we met with an elder care attorney (that is all they do) and it was a great experience. after laying out all the options we (my wife and I) felt the revocable trust was best for our situation..especially for our children's sake. I recently went through this with my Mother's passing as she just had a simple will. I have two great children so the easier I can make it on them the better.

 

[doitmyself]

A sincere thank you to everyone. Very much appreciated. In line with retirement financial planning, this elder care business is probably unique to every situation. My situation is beyond unique.

My friend shared that there are ways to protect your assets. He mentioned one example that under some circumstances the government can seize your assets to cover expenses, even take your car?

Thanks for helping me get going on this. Great advice so far. Take care.

 

[cptbarkey]

After doing a bit of research for my mom, the point of doing a trust is to avoid the government from liquidating that persons assets and forcing that money to be spent on nursing home and hospice care. Inheritance from savings is shattered. If that person also makes over $2k per month, you also are penalized. The primary home and primary vehicle is exempt, but the government does not care about monthly bills either. The entire system end to end is frankly despicable.

 

[Gyro Gearloose]

Yes, very dependent on personal situation and state.

My wife was bailed out of a terrible situation by an elder lawyer. Her dad had to go live in a nursing home and the cost was going to make my mother in law destitute within a couple years. The lawyer filed papers to get a court order to separate marital assets so mother in law could have the house and money to live on and father in law's expenses would be paid by the state. The lawyer made it clear that all assets were for mother's care and if she had to go to nursing home she would have to pay all costs as long as there was any money and when that ran out they would put a lien on the house. There was no walling off assets for inheritance. The lawyer also wrapped up the loose ends transferring ownership of remaining assets after they both passed. His cost was 10K lump sum up front but he paid for himself many times over.

Then there is the opposite situation like my parents. There was no financial or family drama on my side. Mom had enough income to stay in a very nice assisted living as long as she needed, the real estate and bank account ownerships were set up to transfer directly to my brother and I upon both parent's death, and Mom and Dad left a clear and simple will. When Mom passed the only "estate" eligible for probate was a 10 year old used car. We paid a local lawyer $500 to handle the paperwork on the real estate and car and called it a day. I don't know that an elder lawyer would have helped us.

 

[CKN]

Yes, very dependent on personal situation and state.

My wife was bailed out of a terrible situation by an elder lawyer. Her dad had to go live in a nursing home and the cost was going to make my mother in law destitute within a couple years. The lawyer filed papers to get a court order to separate marital assets so mother in law could have the house and money to live on and father in law's expenses would be paid by the state. The lawyer made it clear that all assets were for mother's care and if she had to go to nursing home she would have to pay all costs as long as there was any money and when that ran out they would put a lien on the house. There was no walling off assets for inheritance. The lawyer also wrapped up the loose ends transferring ownership of remaining assets after they both passed. His cost was 10K lump sum up front but he paid for himself many times over.

Then there is the opposite situation like my parents. There was no financial or family drama on my side. Mom had enough income to stay in a very nice assisted living as long as she needed, the real estate and bank account ownerships were set up to transfer directly to my brother and I upon both parent's death, and Mom and Dad left a clear and simple will. When Mom passed the only "estate" eligible for probate was a 10 year old used car. We paid a local lawyer $500 to handle the paperwork on the real estate and car and called it a day. I don't know that an elder lawyer would have helped us.

Same here. We have had a trust for years. Previously lived in California and had a house. With Real Estate being what it is there-anyone who owns a home needed a trust.

 

[GaryMX5]

One must balance the cost of probate vs. the cost of a trust. Probate can often be less expensive especially if the deceased does not leave outstanding loans, mortgages, etc. (and they have a simple will with an appointed executor) that must be taken care of. Went through this with my MIL's recent death. It was pretty much seamless and our expenses weren't much more than 1000.00. We investigated trusts for her some years before she died and most were in the 10K area. The worst part were the lawyers who tried to include ongoing trust management fees that seemed outrageous. We stumbled across a lawyer who ended up suggesting a simple will, some pay upon death bank accounts, etc. as his opinion was that probate would be less than the cost of a trust in her case. The downside of probate is that it is a public process and some low life's might come out of their holes trying to claim past financial obligations. This can slow the process but the bar of proof has been set pretty high for them. It did not happen in our case. Now my BIL passed away without anything. He was a farmer and from what I understand this is not unusual for them to leave things up in the air. He had close to several thousand acres, some with mortgages, he had long term leases on land, was involved in several partnerships, had hundreds of thousands of dollars in farm equipment, cattle, oil leases, and a house his mother left to him that was in his name only. My SIL who had been married to him for 45 years, ended up spending over 30K in legal fees to get this mess cleaned up. After it was done her lawyer suggested that all she needed was a simple will!!!!

 

[CKN]

One must balance the cost of probate vs. the cost of a trust. Probate can often be less expensive especially if the deceased does not leave outstanding loans, mortgages, etc. (and they have a simple will with an appointed executor) that must be taken care of. Went through this with my MIL's recent death. It was pretty much seamless and our expenses weren't much more than 1000.00. We investigated trusts for her some years before she died and most were in the 10K area. The worst part were the lawyers who tried to include ongoing trust management fees that seemed outrageous. We stumbled across a lawyer who ended up suggesting a simple will, some pay upon death bank accounts, etc. as his opinion was that probate would be less than the cost of a trust in her case. The downside of probate is that it is a public process and some low life's might come out of their holes trying to claim past financial obligations. This can slow the process but the bar of proof has been set pretty high for them. It did not happen in our case. Now my BIL passed away without anything. He was a farmer and from what I understand this is not unusual for them to leave things up in the air. He had close to several thousand acres, some with mortgages, he had long term leases on land, was involved in several partnerships, had hundreds of thousands of dollars in farm equipment, cattle, oil leases, and a house his mother left to him that was in his name only. My SIL who had been married to him for 45 years, ended up spending over 30K in legal fees to get this mess cleaned up. After it was done her lawyer suggested that all she needed was a simple will!!!!

Your brother-in law was very shortsighted.-or ignorant-or both. Some people are selfish-don't want to deal with stuff with they are alive, and yes have an attitude of "let them fight it out after I am gone".


Trusts except in ultra high income brackets (think multi millions) don't need on going maintenance. The other downside of a will is that potentially you have a judge telling you what to do. In a trust-it's a non issue. Unless you have literally nothing-meaning no real estate, no cash in bank, etc.-IMHO (not a Lawyer) you don't want a will.

 

[CKN]

Absolutely! There are a lot of moving parts and if done wrong it can become a very costly nightmare. A good friend set his irrevocable trust up and put two houses in it. The other day we were talking about trusts and he said he regrets putting his vacation home in the trust. He's 75 and is finding the three hour ride to the house and all the work that is required in maintaining it is not easy anymore. He said if he sells it the proceeds remain in the trust, he's not happy with that idea. He put no other assets in it because he doesn't want to give up control of his money.

Good lawyers are Law Degree and The Bar Association, etc. doesn't guarantee much. There's a lot of homework required to set this up properly,hard to find, just like anything else. They can be unethical and give bad advice too, and the rules can vary between states so planning a move can complicate things further.

No-they are really not hard to find. Sure there are unethical lawyers-there are unethical people in every professional field and trade-but posts like yours make it seem it's the exception to find a competent person-when in my experience-it's like anything else-a few bad ones (Lawyers, Plumbers, Contractors etc.,) give a bad name to everybody else.
Plus-let's face it-there are control freaks on this board-they have issues handing control over to someone who is much more competent than themselves on any given subject-including someone who does things everyday-like writing trusts.

 

[demarpaint]

No-they are really not hard to find. Sure there are unethical lawyers-there are unethical people in every professional field and trade-but posts like yours make it seem it's the exception to find a competent person-when in my experience-it's like anything else-a few bad ones (Lawyers, Plumbers, Contractors etc.,) give a bad name to everybody else.
Plus-let's face it-there are control freaks on this board-they have issues handing control over to someone who is much more competent than themselves on any given subject-including someone who does things everyday-like writing trusts.

Good points. Which is why I said there's a lot of homework required. Yes there are control freaks on this board, and some pretty bright people too. When someone goes to a few seminars and gets conflicting information about something this important he/she seeks more information. That's exactly what I'm doing and why I'm following this thread. To go on blind faith because lawyers are supposed to be ethical, trustworthy and experts in their field can lead to problems. Meeting with them going to seminars can be very helpful, especially if you ask the same questions and get different answers. There's were the homework lies. I'll find the right guy.