Education opinion

[obbop]

For what it's worth.........

Did the career change thing. Pushing 50 and am now a teacher. Been substituting since grabbing the certificate last January.

What have I learned after teaching 7-12th graders???

Get yer' kids out of the public schools. Yer' mini-humans deserve better.

The lowest common denominator students impede those with self-discipline, those that want to learn.

Having to devote extra time to mainstreamed "special needs" students and the children of illegal aliens who know little to no English is time taken away from the normal and above students.

Want yer' kids to succeed? Get 'em outta' the public schools.

Sure, there ARE some decent schools but, on the whole, I am convinced that a large percentage of America's kids are being harmed within the public school system.

This rant brought to you by the letter "F" and the number zero.

 

[Shannow]

obbop,
if I could afford it, I'd be dropping out of the workforce and home schooling for my kid(s) when the time comes.

I tutor a number of kids (hour's tutoring for an hour's babysitting - I get to see what the kid's like, and they, not their parents pay for their tutoring) who are struggling with sciences and maths, and it seems that the ones prepared to put in great effort often get left behind due to the rabble that want to disrupt.

hmmmm, maybe I can con my Mum into retiring early, and see if she'll open an exclusive school(used to be Vice Principal in a Catholic school and dropped back to kindergarden teacher to see more kids off to a decent start, was teaching year 11/12 sciences and maths at 19 year, and 4' 11")

 

[Pablo]

My kids go to public school - in Lynden, Washington we are blessed with good schools of all varieties up to 12th.

The scary thing is: if our schools are better (they are) then just how bad are the mediocre schools? My 6th grader got a real bummer in the 5th. Bright girl - but now she is suffering in 6th because of an absolute douf of a leftist, who spent full class days railing against the current President.....I could go on, but I don't want high blood pressure medicine...

But I agree 100% with you AND homeschooling has many pluses (and some REAL minuses).

 

[Shannow]

quote:

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Originally posted by Pablo:
(and some REAL minuses).

---

I agree. I still don't see the plusses outweighing the minuses if you can choose carefully.

It's not really an option down here, either.

One of the most successful chools in the district is an old country school with 50 kids from preps to year 12. They've got 3 teachers, so obviously no year 1, year 2 programmes etc.

And they produce very nice kids, with great results.

 

[keith]

What works for one child might not work for another. My three children are in three different schools in three different towns, because what works best for one is not necessarily the best for another.

I started to get a sinking feeling about my town middle school when they started teaching civics. The US Constitution is a living breathing document that grants rights to you! I swear, it was right there in the 4th grade study book. When I suggested to the teacher that the Constitution protects our inherent and inalienable rights and should not be changed to suit the transient whims of today, I got a strange look. My impression is that about 90% of the school teachers here will be voting a straight democrat ticket, and have absolutely no hesitation in bringing one sided views into the classroom, starting at Kindergarten.

We will be knocking heads for a few more years. Most of the town teachers don't know I am a qualified teacher and know their tricks

 

[motorguy222]

Talk About a School.Read This:


Teacher Lops Off Chunk of Student's Ear

Thursday, September 2, 2004
BANGKOK, Thailand - A teacher enforcing school regulations on haircuts snipped one girl's locks to ear's length Thursday but ended up lopping off a chunk of her ear as well, police said.

Laweng Yangpakdee, a teacher at Wat Dan Prachakorn school in southern Chumpon province, had been inspecting students after their morning assembly to ensure their hair was regulation length, said police Capt. Kamsingh Sriyapai.

"He was going to cut the hair of this girl who had a haircut that was against school regulations. ... Her hair was against her ear, and he just cut without being careful," Kamsingh said.

He did not know how much of 15-year-old Theedarat Pattong's earlobe was cut off.

But a report on the Kom Chad Luek newspaper Web site quoted plastic surgeon Dr. Wiboon Thongduang as saying that half of the earlobe was severed, and could not be reattached because the girl did not get proper medical attention quickly enough.

Theeradat's father reported the incident to police, but no charges have been filed against the teacher, who along with the victim was to be questioned Friday, Kamsingh said.

 

[1sttruck]

Be careful where you jump....


From the NY Times:

By DIANA JEAN SCHEMO

Published: August 17, 2004

WASHINGTON, Aug. 16 - The first national comparison of test scores among children in charter schools and regular public schools shows charter school students often doing worse than comparable students in regular public schools. The findings, buried in mountains of data the Education Department released without public announcement, dealt a blow to supporters of the charter school movement, including the Bush administration. The data shows fourth graders attending charter schools performing about half a year behind students in other public schools in both reading and math. Put another way, only 25 percent of the fourth graders attending charters were proficient in reading and math, against 30 percent who were proficient in reading, and 32 percent in math, at traditional public schools.

Because charter schools are concentrated in cities, often in poor neighborhoods, the researchers also compared urban charters to traditional schools in cities. They looked at low-income children in both settings, and broke down the results by race and ethnicity as well. In virtually all instances, the charter students did worse than their counterparts in regular public schools. Charters are expected to grow exponentially under the new federal education law, No Child Left Behind, which holds out conversion to charter schools as one solution for chronically failing traditional schools. "The scores are low, dismayingly low," said Chester E. Finn Jr., a supporter of charters and president of the Thomas B. Fordham Foundation, who was among those who asked the administration to do the comparison. Mr. Finn, an assistant secretary of education in the Reagan administration, said the quality of charter schools across the country varied widely, and he predicted that the results would make those overseeing charters demand more in the way of performance.....

 

[keith]

quote:

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Originally posted by 1sttruck:
Be careful where you jump....
.....
The first national comparison of test scores among children in charter schools and regular public schools shows charter school students often doing worse than comparable students in regular public schools.

---

You might mention that the "report" is the work of the American Federation of Teachers and has come in for some fierce criticism from many sides. Even that report states in black and white that charter school children are advancing their test scores more rapidly than other schools. Translation - they get more troubled and low performing kids, and do better with them.

On a personal level, my oldest daughter goes to a charter school in a city with horrible public schools. The school is three years new. First year they had a total of nine children on the honor roll. This year, more than 100. The teachers have told me that they get many of the worst kids, whose parents are school shopping and looking for the miracle fix. No special ed. classes, they all have to perform and the standards are high. It's amazing how simple and effective this is. The school principal doesn't settle for less than the best each kid can be.

This would of course be equally effective in the regular public schools, but they seem to look for answers in all the wrong places.

Which school works best for your child is something you have to research because there are no two children alike and no two schools alike.

 

[keith]

Here is a study not sponsored by a teachers union:

Study shows charter schools better

"The vast majority of children attending the nation's 1,146 charter schools with at least 10 students are more proficient in reading and math than their nearest regular public school with a similar racial composition, a Harvard University study found."

 

[ALS]

This the last year for my sister in law. She teaches in a city school system in New Hampshire. She is retiring and can not wait for next June. She has had it due to the absolute garbage that is being dumped on the Teachers. She use to be a Democrat but about 10 years ago she saw what was happening on the school board and the NEA and changed to a Republican.

 

[oilbabe]

As a counselor who works in a public school, I can see why people would believe that public schools are not making the grade. Schools are like any other organization, you have some people who are there to do a "job" and you have some people who are there because they really have an interest in helping students succeed and achieve. I work in a small district, with about 60% of students at the poverty level. I think there are a lot of factors that affect student performance that are out of the control of a school, yet we are held accountable for how those factors play out in the educational setting. I don't know what the composition of an average charter school would be in terms of class size etc., but I believe that is a key factor that is not often taken into account. Comments were made in earlier posts about mainstreaming and about kids bringing their "issues" to school that manifest in inappropriate behavior in class. This takes the teacher's time etc to deal with this and reduces instruction time. Having been through the education classes, the classroom management techniques taught are not necessarily going to help you with those "troubled" students. That is why they have teachers who have been specially trained to deal with kids with Behavior Disorders/Emotional Disorders etc. The average teacher does not have enough of that information. I spend a large percentage of my time in consultation with teachers about "Johnny's" behavior and how we get him straightened out so that he can function with his fellow students in the regular classroom. This is the function of a counselor, to offer this expertise. If you talk to teachers and counselors though, especially those who have been around awhile, they will tell you that the general disrespect shown to school personnel and the pervasive attitude of "I'm not responsible" shown by both students and their parents is only increasing. I am all for owning my share of the responsibility for this, as are most educators I know. However, I am not in favor of being responsible for the parent who dosen't set a good example for their child, who is apathetic, won't or can't (because they are trying to financially survive) take part in their child's educational process. Education is a cooperative process and is like anything in life, you get out of it what you put into it. Do I think the system is broken, perhaps, but to fight over who is responsible for the poor performance on a test that no one has actually proven really predicts anything is not productive and will not solve the problem. Playing the blame game only makes people defensive and does not produce any quality discussion or resolution of the issue. So what will change it? I am a learner, so if anyone has a suggestion about how to fix it, I am open to hearing it.

 

[keith]

quote:

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Originally posted by oilbabe:
Do I think the system is broken, perhaps, but to fight over who is responsible for the poor performance on a test that no one has actually proven really predicts anything is not productive and will not solve the problem.

---

Here in Connecticut, the state predicts its future prison population from reading scores in 3rd grade.

Tests are one of the most important means of determining not only child and school performance in the moment, but the future impact of the kids as they wash through the system and into the adult world.

It's remarkable that even as early as 3rd grade, these test scores are very valuable indicators.

 

[oilbabe]

When I use the results of that 3rd grade test to predict whether you will be in prison, does that change the expectations I have for that student and how does that influence the outcome? A standardized test is a snapshot I took of that child on one day of their life. What if my some event in my family or something that has happened at school is on my mind when I take that test, is it really an accurate prediction of my future performance? My concern is not that we are testing students to ascertain both their performance and the performance of a school and/or district, but how accurate are the results and are they being interpreted and used appropriately in conjunction with other measures to identify concerns with students and schools. In Missouri, students take a communication arts test in 3rd grade, again in 7th and again in 10th. What is this designed to measure and compare? I believe that one positive aspect of NCLB is that students will be tested now in grades 3-8. Then I can look at those results and see how the student is progressing and compare apples to apples and pinpoint where the concern might be.

 

[james1]

My two children are both home schooled. I was pretty skeptical at first, but my wife really wanted to try it. After I found out how many different companies produce complete curricula, I got on board. We are also very lucky to reside in an area with a very large population of home schooled kids. My children participate in art, science, music and phys-ed cooperatives that allow them to interact with many other children. They also average about 1 field trip per week to visit places like farms, historical sites and museums. My greatest wish for my kids is for them to find their passion and figure out a way to earn a living from it. Homeschooling provides the time for them to delve deeper into subjects that interest them. My eldest daughter read 67 books last year in 3rd grade in addition to her regular studies. That may be more than all the books I have read in my life to date! When I consider how our founding fathers and other great Americans such as Abraham Lincoln learned, I feel good about our choice!

 

[keith]

quote:

---

Originally posted by oilbabe:
I believe that one positive aspect of NCLB is that students will be tested now in grades 3-8. Then I can look at those results and see how the student is progressing and compare apples to apples and pinpoint where the concern might be.

---

I agree that testing is necessary and good, which is where I came in. The 3rd grade test is not used to determine WHICH children will go to prison

Measured across a large state population, the statistics are reliable.

 

[javacontour]

Children learn much more than just from school. If you really think about it, we all home school. Some just take that to the next level.

We teach our children by our example. If our kids see us read, then they will pick up that reading is a valuable skill. If they see us plant our blessed ASSurance in front of the idiot box and guzzle a six pack each night, then guess what out kids might choose as their way of life?

It seems we ask our teacher to overcome all of this "home schooling" when they have 6-8 hours each day to show there is another way.

I agree with oilbabe, that there are a lot of reasons why a kid doesn't do well at school. There are teachers who are just waiting to collect their pension, maybe they couldn't get a different job, maybe they like 3 months off.

Of course the other half (just throwing out a non-scientific, can't back it up number, so lay off, LOL) of the teachers who are really interested in seeing a kid learn, grow and discover his talent and "raison d'être"

One of the things I see is that we are asking our schools to do things that most believe parents are responsible for doing. We feed children breakfast and lunch at school, we want schools to keep kids busy after school with sports and other extracirriculars, we want our schools to discipline the other parents child, (but not our little angelic child, the teacher must be wrong.)

What are we asking of or expecting from the parent? In my opinion, to give up on the parent is to give up on the child, given the amount of influence a parent has on the child.

So how do we as a society deal with the issue.

I'm just slightly to the right of Ghengis Khan, and it should not suprise you to find that I'm not for some big federal or state program to solve these issues.

Rather, I'm for getting ham fisted hand of big government out of this and let communities discover what works best.

Rather than a government program to put people back to work, feed the hungry, etc. Why not get mentors for these folks. Folks who are middle income and upper income would take on someone to show them what they need to do to get ahead, how to set the example for their kids and something that just demonstrates that it isn't hopeless.

I suspect that a lot of the problem in really poverty stricken areas is a feeling of hopelessness. So how do you provide hope to the parents.

Hope certainly doesn't come from a check each month, it comes from trying and seeing results. Someone helping you through minor setbacks, and pointing you in the right direction.

You solve the problem with hopeless parents, and dismotivated parents and I'm sure a lot of your problems in education go away.

Probably too much ramble, so let me clarify my points.

1. There are good and bad teachers.
2. Schools are asked to take on too many problems they are not equipped nor prepared to handle.
3. All children are home-schooled, some just get more schooling than others. The quality of this education also varies.
4. What a parent values, so will the child in most cases.

TB

 

[javacontour]

quote:

---

Originally posted by obbop:
For what it's worth.........

Did the career change thing. Pushing 50 and am now a teacher. Been substituting since grabbing the certificate last January.

What have I learned after teaching 7-12th graders???

Get yer' kids out of the public schools. Yer' mini-humans deserve better.

The lowest common denominator students impede those with self-discipline, those that want to learn.

Having to devote extra time to mainstreamed "special needs" students and the children of illegal aliens who know little to no English is time taken away from the normal and above students.

Want yer' kids to succeed? Get 'em outta' the public schools.

Sure, there ARE some decent schools but, on the whole, I am convinced that a large percentage of America's kids are being harmed within the public school system.

This rant brought to you by the letter "F" and the number zero.

---

You know, I like listening to Rush Limbaugh and others because I agree with a lot of what he says.

However, one thing strikes me about him is that I often don't see any solutions. He does a great job of pointing out the problems and making me laugh at the same time.

However, at the end of the day I'm thinking, what are the solutions. It's easy to point out the problem, the question is, what would YOU do to solve it.

So I go back to the topic starter and ask, "What would you do?"

TB

 

[1sttruck]

Per the No Child Left Behind act the NAEP is supposed to be the monitor of how well schools are doing across the nation, and it is the 2003 NAEP report that has been the source of discussion.

The RAND corporation looked at charter vs public schools in California, see attached below.

http://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/

The National Assessment of Educational Progress (NAEP), also known as "the Nation's Report Card," is the only nationally representative and continuing assessment of what America's students know and can do in various subject areas. Since 1969, assessments have been conducted periodically in reading, mathematics, science, writing, U.S. history, civics, geography, and the arts.

Under the current structure, the Commissioner of Education Statistics, who heads the National Center for Education Statistics in the U.S. Department of Education, is responsible by law for carrying out the NAEP project. The National Assessment Governing Board (NAGB), appointed by the Secretary of Education but independent of the Department, sets policy for NAEP and is responsible for developing the framework and test specifications that serve as the blueprint for the assessments. NAGB is a bipartisan group whose members include governors, state legislators, local and state school officials, educators, business representatives, and members of the general public. Congress created the 26-member Governing Board in 1988.


http://www.rand.org/publications/MR/MR1700/

Charter schools generally have comparable or slightly lower test scores than conventional public schools after adjusting for the ethnic and demographic characteristics of the students. How-ever, these effects vary across the different types of charter schools. Our evaluation suggests that, controlling for student characteris-tics, classroom-based conversion schools have comparable scores in certain subjects or grade levels, in other cases higher scores, and still in other cases lower scores. Classroom-based start-up schools have higher test scores than conventional public schools across grades and subjects except in elementary math, where the scores are slightly lower. Finally, nonclassroom-based conversion and start-up schools, relative to conventional public schools, have lower test scores across the board.

 

[james1]

I agree that the majority of the solutions begin and end with the parents. Great analogy about setting an example at home.

Javacontour:

Solution (over simplistic as it may be) - Make the child's problem at school the parent's problem. "Inconvenience" the parents through regular required parent/teacher conferences. Require the parents of problem children to provide transportation to and from school. The only way some parents will put forth any effort is when the consequences run headlong into their selfishness.

The best solution would be through peer pressure. Make any parent that isn't ensuring their child is getting a quality education a societal misfit. Unfortunately, that isn't considered "cool"

 

[oilbabe]

I applaud you for home schooling and think that it is great that so many parents are taking an interest in providing that guidance for their children (neat that everyone supports one another in the cooperative etc.) I wish everyone could have the choice they wanted for their children; public, charter, or home-school. Probably the people who would post on this site are the people who are committed to participating in providing their children with the knowledge and skills they need to be successful as adults and would work within the public, charter, or home-schooling arena to advocate for their child's education. After all, other than some regulation from the federal government and the state, local people control their schools. If they don't like what is happening...fire 'em. Isn't that what happens in the corporate world? You are told your performance is lacking, asked to correct it, if you don't correct it, you're history. Perhaps this is a simplistic view, but I have seen situations where enough parents were concerned about something and the school responded to their concerns. I have seen situations where only one was parent was concerned and the school responded. I most often see parents passively accept something they don't agree with and I wonder why.